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I think I need to agree with most of the others here about turning this plane down. It doesn't seem prudent to buy an airplane for $25,000 with unknown damage history when there are so many more much cheaper aircraft with known attributes. A good example is our airplane, a 1970 150K. We purchased it six years ago with 3500 hours on the airframe and 250 hours on the engine. In the 600+ hours we have flown it we had to replace a doubler in the tail and a magneto. We paid $17,000. So, you can do much better for the money, in my opinion.

You're right Carl, I did mean to say ribs. Sorry for the confusion.
I contacted Free Flight Systems in Waco TX tobay to see what their position was on the Terra Avionics since they were the ones who bought out Terra. They said they now service and plan to continue to service all the late model digital Terra Avionics as found in this plane. They informed me they have new, still in the box, the digital Terra 760D(760 Com channels like found in this plane-it has two of them), that can't be sold as new but must now be sold as refurbished, for $950 exchange or $1,350 without.
However, Terra is still out of business. Regardless of the fact that the radios may now work fine, there is no assurance of how long this company will continue to support this now defunct company's product. Due to this fact, and the fact that the brand name is now out of business, I feel the avionics must be discounted even though this is an IFR certified plane.
The undisclosed damage history is still my biggest problem. I feel that the planes repairs probably have withstood the test of time. Unfortunatly though, damage history is still damage history and will follow this plane around now forever more and subsequently be reflected in it's market value.
Best to deal with this damage history now and attempt to renegotiated a lower price up front that reflects this, as it could never be overcome later when I attempted to sell it.
Thanks for all the input. I will wait to see what the FAA CD says and then possibly attempt to renegoiate the price depending upon if the repairs have been properly documented. If they have not, I will ask for my money back and walk. I don't want to get further tangled up in a mess like that.

Damage history???

I owned a Cessna 150 which I had to put in a pea patch in 1967. The airplane was very substantially damaged, several months in repair. The accident was reported to the FAA (I vividly remember that conversation!)and of course to the insurance co. I recently went on our Members Hangar and looked up the records on this airplane. It is still on the registry, and shows NO DAMAGE HISTORY!

So much for that!

George Abbott

Further on the damage history issue.

When I bought the 150 that I now own I did a search on our Members Hanger and this revealed that the airplane had suffered a nose wheel collapse around 1986. By the way, the sellers made no attempt to conceal this.

When I got the FAA CD on the airplane there was no mention of this incident. When I reviewed the log books before buying the airplane I was very interested in this.

The log books made no mention of the incident. Rather, they stated that the airplane was removed from service on that date for conversion to tail wheel. The log book is silent so far as any mention of an accident, or for that matter propeller damage. (It took 2 years to get the TW conversion done, must have been a spare time project)

From the logs this airplane has no damage history!

The airplane has been through a recent major engine and prop overhaul so I have no concerns about reliability.

Things are not always as they seem.

George Abbott

We're missing something here, George!

I did a document search on the clubs database (which appears to be down today), and found a record of 84G having been landed "off field" after the idiot/pilot took-off with insufficient fuel, to go to a nearby field for fuel!

I just got my CD from the FAA. A certified copy. There is no mention of the incident on this CD (or in my logbooks, for that matter)!

Do we need to query the NTSB as well, in order to get "complete" records? If there was no injury or damage, the NTSB shouldn't have been involved, so where did this information come from? Insurance companys? Local Law Enforcement? The Rod and Gun club? I don't understand where the database gets information that may not appear in FAA records, or why the FAA wouldn't include all records in an owners request for records! This record obviously exists somewhere!



Carl

Could it be a matter of semantics. For instance, when I do a search of N34908, I come up with an accident in which poor piloting skills ran the plane into a ditch. An event that they called "minor" damage. FAA records show a 337 for the major repair work done (which was the left wing). This surprised me since dropping into a ditch would seem to imply perhaps a prop strike or nose gear damage too. In fact the plane sports a later model nose skirt with no log entry. In 1985 an event occurred resulting in engine teardown and inspection, but there is no record of the event with NTSB, so possibly a tow bar, another ditch etc, that was not reported.

I am confused as to when the NTSB gets involved and when the plane is just fixed without any accident reporting. Plus the definitions of Major/Minor repairs is quite subjective. To me messing up a wing requiring replacement of skins and stringers is at least moderate. Not so says NTSB with a minor score.

Oh well.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I think there has to be a fatality to have the NTSB involved. The FAA classifies accidents as incidents and accitents on some criteria, what I'm not sure, but its quite easy to hide accidents/incidents as George has mentioned.

If the repair did not fall in the Major repair category, then a Form 337 would not even need to be done, however, a log entry is a must anytime work of any sort is preformed on an aircraft. I'll admit that alot of people won't make an entry just to hide damage, and thats certainly wrong, thats where a good prebuy, with someone who knows what to look for can spot tale tale signs of repairs, re-riveting, etc.

Charles

You're right! This may have been an incident, but it was not an accident!

In the incident recorded (somewhere by somebody) on my plane, the NTSB would not require a report, assuming there was in fact no injury or damage to the aircraft or private property! Being an off airport forced landing, the FAA may have required a report. I think he landed on a highway, so local Law enforcement may have played a role, and may have notified the FAA. The pilot or owner may have reported it! The FAA may have taken enforcement action against the pilot, and the appearance of the N number in the report may have trigered the entry in the (unknown) records above. But I am still at a loss as to where I would get a copy of that report, based on my N number alone!

Carl

Here is the definition of "accident" under part 830, Jeff:

"An occurrence associated with the operation of the aircraft which takes place between the time any person boards an aircraft with the intention of flight and all such persons have disembarked, and in which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damage."

Subastantial Damage means" Any damage or structural failurethat adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component" This DOES NOT include: Engine failure, bent fairings or cowlings, dented skin, small puncture holes, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, any damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes or wing tips.

A good example is that the classic gear up landing does not constitute a report to NTSB. And, by the way, accidents should be reported to NTSB, not the FAA.

The FAA CD came in yesterday. It did not have anything in there that corroborated the "plane rebuilt" entry from 1980. As a matter of fact it did not show that any major repairs had occurred. Only a few 337's from the early years related to minor repairs or alterations. I wonder if maybe no one actually watches this stuff very closly. Who assures that the records are properly filed? Who's reponsibility is it that it is done, the owner or mechanic?

One thing is certian. The log books mention a major repair and the plane shows it by the dissimilar colored ribs. Without any documentation to support who, what, when and by whom the repairs were done, is this a legitamite potential problem or not? Am I making to much of this?
Apparently this plane has made it this long and it has always made annual and is still flying around regularly without someone, FAA or otherwise, making an issue of it.
Is there really a potential problem here for an uninformed owner or not? What are the real pitfalls or potential problems?

By the way, the current owner told me he was only the 3rd person to ever own this plane. The CD shows each and every time it changed hands and he is actually the 11th owner. I guess you never really know unless you get the CD. It was interesting to see where and when this plane changed hands and the different states it has called home all these years. It even showed when this plane had been mortgaged and that it had once been repossed by a bank and then resold by them to pay off the note.