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Rudy,
In any vocation there are good and bad craftsmen. Those that
take pride in what they do and those only out to make a buck.
I am sorry that your first encounter in aircraft buying has been
such a negative experiance. You did the right thing in getting a prebuy inspection.
It saved you lots of aggravation and $$$.
As far as what others here are feeling about your posts
and responce to the seller, I think you may have come accross
a little too strong with some of your comments.
I feel Gary (and others) are right. Your responce to the seller
should only have been Thank you but No thanks. I'll pass on this one.
Then explain the discrepancies that were found.
Airplane owners, no matter what shape the plane is in are as
passionate about there planes as you are about this issue.
I think, and someone correct me if I am wrong (ya like I need to ask for that!)
If an IA has signed off on an annual then the only people who can ground the plane
would be the owner, pilot or FAA.
If a mechanic could ground a plane because of a look see he preformed then
every one he looked at that he did not preform the work would be
unairworthy because "that's not the way I would have done that. I don't like it."
You asked:
If owners are not permitted to participate in the maintenance of their aircraft,
how are they to live up to the standards for maintaining the aircraft in airworthy condition?
Well If your mechanic won't let you at least watch and answer
your questions then I would find a new mechanic.

You stated the Vref value for this plane is $16,250.
Vref is for a plane in "average" condition.
This one is undoubtedly well below average. Sounds like there were many
red flags and maybe you didn't need to go as far into the
purchase process as you have.

Also, remember that there will always be things that even the
best mechanics will miss that will show up later. So plan your
budget for those things when you finaly do find the one you
just have to have.

Ron

Rudy,

Those six things you learned are priceless.

I especially love number 2, "I need to listen to my gut..." I know I removed the rest of the context, but you nailed it right on the head. All too often we have folks post here that say, "My gut feeling is bad, but what do you guys think?" It has already gone south for the buyer, keep it that way.

When I annual an aircraft, your number three is also a great big red flag. That tells me that either the annual has been pencil whipped, or that there has been no maintenance performed other than inspections. Just like you said, that's a big red flag for me. If undocumented maintenance causes an accident, who takes the fall? If the pilot and passenger survive, they and the last IA do. If the pilot and passenger die, the last IA does. Of course, the pilot and passenger are dead...

Number 6, using the same mechanic is a very personal decision, and if you're comfortable, stay there. Sounds like they kept you from getting bitten from a potentially bad situation.

These are lessons you can't learn from reading a book. I'm looking forward to seeing what you end up buying.

Isn't there a basic check-list that all annuals include for each specific airplane? That is, can one assume when an annual is done, by any mechanic, these items are addressed and the plane is properly maintained?

Bruce,

There is such a checklist. The basic, FAR required annual inspection checklist is printed in FAR 43, Appendix D. There is an aircraft specific checklist printed in the Cessna 150 or 152 Service Manual.

Due to the autonomy of the A&P mechanic, there is virtually no oversight beyond the individual's integrity to guarantee that each item on the checklist is followed. It is exactly the same principle of pilots not using checklists when they fly. Sure, they use them while they're a student pilot, then definitely for their checkride. But, somewhere along the way, the use of the checklist is set aside in favor of using the memorized items, or flows as it is sometimes called.

Mechanics are the same way. I might use the book to change a tire once, twice, heck maybe 10 times. But after a while, I don't use a book because I feel like I have learned how to perform the task correctly. Am I a bad mechanic? That's debatable, but my process of changing a tire is by the book. When it comes to torques, critical installations, or something I just want the directions for, I grab the book.

How often does the pilot who doesn't use the checklist forget to set the DG or Altimeter prior to take-off. It happens all the time. The airlines demand the strict use of the checklist all the time, no exceptions. Lose an engine, memory items are completed while the pilot not flying grabs the checklist, verifies the memory items have been done and proceeds to perform the rest of the checklist.

Back on topic, when a mechanic signs off that he has performed an annual inspection in accordance with the 150 or 152 service manual, he is implying that he followed everything that's in the book. It looks good on paper, covers the mechanic, and effectively puts the burden of proof on the person(s) who question the completeness of the inspection or how compliant he is regarding every single task.

No mechanic would write that he performed an inspection except task numbers 1, 5, 7, 13, 21, and 40, and then sign off the annual.

Crap, I'm rambling again, somebody help me!

Here's something that you can do to help minimize the chance of something on your plane being overlooked. In your service manual, go to the inspection requirements checklist. Make up a checklist that includes the items from that list that apply, 50 hour, 100 hour, 500 hour, annual, etc., and provide a place for the mechanic to sign. Then give him that list. Insist that he sign off that list and give it back to you. I wouldn't have a problem with that as a mechanic. I'd complete my checklist, and yours. Any extra time required would be on your nickel, but I'd do it how you want it. If there's a shop that won't do that, find one who will. Bottom line is that that checklist comes straight from the Service Manual and those items should be covered anyway. If there are other things that you want to add, like tire rotation, or upgrades that you want to make, put them on there, too, and they'll get done at the going labor rate.

There are ways to improve the communications between owners and mechanics. Giving the mechanic a written list of expectations is a step in the right direction.

If you simply take your plane to a mechanic and say I need an annual inspection, throw him the keys, and wait by the phone until he calls, you're setting yourself up.

Rudy,

You make a fine argument, but many of your assumptions are just plain wrong! Aviation is more akin to the automotive industry than medicine, and we all know the risks we take every time we step into a car, or hire a mechanic to work on one.

No doubt you are highly trained and extremely competent in your profession, but you have reached that level of professionalism only through knowledge and experience. You apparently are not qualified to diagnose the condition of an aircraft, anymore than this owners aircraft mechanic is qualified to cast dispersions on your medical proficiency. You have in essence made a third party diagnosis without the required personal knowledge and experience to make such diagnosis. Is this common in medical practice? I sincerely hope not!

If your mechanic feels strongly enough about the condition of this aircraft to pursue what limited resources are available to him (no, he cannot ground this aircraft himself), that's his prerogative, not yours.

While I feel your concerns for the health and well being of this owner are genuine, I fear your approach will have the opposite affect! Had I received such communication from a prospective buyer, I would have been angered by what I would have seen as a lightly veiled attack on my personal integrity (and certainly on my mechanic's), and the buyer's need for self justification in not completing the deal! I would likely have dismissed your comments as self righteous rhetoric, rather than have been moved to investigate and correct what your "mechanic" perceives as major discrepancies in what I "know" to be an airworthy aircraft. I have no reason to believe your mechanic is more knowledgeable than mine!

Your heart may be in the right place, but I fear psychology is not something you should specialize in.

Please, no offense intended!

Let me say that anyone who participates in emergency medicine has my utmost respect (and gratitude). Several of my family (myself included) probably wouldn't be here today without the selfless efforts of others such as yourself! Thankyou!

We should move on now towards finding you an airplane you both can live with! A much more enjoyable topic!

Wow, this thread is amazing~!

Rudolph introduces himself and thanks the Club and its members for being a "wonderful resource" helping him towards his AC purchase.

He receives some very warm hellos and some quick advice on locating and selecting an AP for his AC inpection.

The AC in question has some serious discrepencies. Rudolph articulates this well: engine data plate has no data stamped (big red flag), AD's not complied with(I don't understand how an AC can be annualled without updated AD's), incorrectly installed safety wire and wrong gauge, non-aviation battery, incorrectly installed carb heat controls, improper flight control rigging.

Rudolph then smartly states that he'll resume his AC search once he secures more money to purchase a plane better maintained. I'm sure this upsets a few here that still think its 1999 and $15k still has the same buying power.

A few questions asking for additional info on other discrencies and a few compliments on Rudolph making a wise decision to pass on this AC. Rudolph also shares the tail number of the AC to help other potential buyers be aware of this AC's condition and he describes this as a "major fixer upper".

Now, The Letter:

While most wouldn't take the time to write a long explanation and reasoning to the seller, I took it as most consumers do when they feel like they've been ripped off. That is to over document the chain of events. It seemed to me that Rudolph was making his feeling very clear, and that he expected to receive a refund of his Earnest Money Deposit back from the Seller.

The letter didn't read that Rudolph was threatning contacting the FAA, but suggested the Seller might have cause to. I too try to handle things at a lower lever, before escalating to the next step.

His letter rambled more than necessary to make his point, but was not offensive in any way. He stated that he accepted his portion of the costs incurred by this process.

The Comments:

"Stepping over the line" come on, we as pilots take up family and friends routinely. If someone deliberately and grossly misrepresented the condition of an AC as it relates to Safety, I would be pretty upset.

"This guy probably prided himself on not spending much money on the airplane" Exactly, that's why $16k AC exist. While you cannot always recoupe upgrade and mainentence cost, most sellers who've done it right try to as evidenced by the asking price.

"finding the perfect airplane" Man, I'm amazed by this comment. I don't think Rudolph was "nit picking" this airplane. This plane has some serious question marks. Rudolph stated that paint, interior nor avionics were not his priorities, SAFETY was his first priority.

"Brand New Airplane" Wow, again, this isn't even a comparison. I think Cessna would be shut down swiftly if it was delivering new AC with Mis-rigged flight controls, engine controls not connected...please...

These are all just opinions, and I didn't read any "calloused" comments
There are quite a few Club members who err on the side of Safety and routinely replace any questionable part.

"Come off your Throne" really?? Caring about himself, wife and any other passenger and not wanting to get them KILLED is not a bad thing.

Most would rather not have the FAA involved including myself, but this was a good learning experience for everyone, including any potential AC shoppers and new Club members.

Gary and Carl, as active aviation professional, I appreciate your replies, and others, Gary just said it well

It's OK to tell somebody that his airplane, "......is probably worth more as salvage than as an airplane".........and.............."but right now she looks like either a death trap or a money pit"..............and.................."How much should I add for one maintained by an owner who *cares* about the aircraft?"

Oky Doky, chastising noted, Fredo!

I don't think Rudy was offended by my comments (that was NOT my intent) but your comments prove my point, Fred!

Not everybody takes everything the way it is meant.

If I were the seller, I would not have taken the letter the way I think Rudy meant it. Perhaps you would have (even without hearing Rudy's explanation above), but I have to wonder.

I could have sugar coated my comments, but I fear they would have lost something in the interpretation. If Rudy (or you) were a little incensed by my wording, then that only brings you closer to understanding my point. The seller was likely incensed, too, and as I alluded to before, I don't think that was the affect Rudy was after.

Anyway, other than the letter that I (and others) would have worded differently, Rudy has handled everything well, I think!

Hey Carl! You may wanna go back and reread Freddy's commentary? I believe that he was complimenting you and chastising me!

If I may say so, I believe the SELLER in this circumstance is the one that truly should be complimented! His airplane may have had a few squawks, but he obviously handled things very courteously, all things considered! Bravo!

Bill,

You got it correct. While not wholing agreeing with the meathod of contacting the Seller, I was highlighting the importance of discussing these buying scenarios...

I was lucky and had a good first time buy experience.

freddie...