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I kind of agree with Bill. Not to pick on you, but don't forget that airplanes to many people are an extension of themselves, and even a slob doesn't like to be called a slob. This guy probably prided himself on not spending much money on the airplane. You may have even made implied threats with comments about "Ferry permits" and "reporting to the FAA". The other thing is, your mechanic probably doesn't have authority to ground the airplane based on the inspection he did. If it has a current annual, not much he can do other than what he did...."don't buy it".

It's a tough learning process in aircraft buying, and unlike that over-sensitive cad Bill (REALLY JUST KIDDING BILL!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), I would sell you an airplane (if mine was for sale) but I would preface it like I do all of mine. "This is what it is, this is what I know and if you like it...buy it, if not, just walk away. But don't sit and insult me and my mechanic over what you mechanic "thinks" is wrong with it".

Or something like that. Hang in there and something will come up. Don't get put off by all of our advice...it is just advice, not necessarily gospel.

WELL! I NEVER!!!!

I can understand your concerns, but I honestly feel the seller believes the aircraft to be airworthy, and I feel obligated to tell him he needs to think before he pulls the starter (which, by the way also needs to be replaced).

I tend to credit most people with being more honest, my wife is more critical of people. She feels the seller knew the horrible condition of the aircraft and was trying to pull a fast one. I have seen the aircraft in flight, piloted by the seller. He obviously believed the aircraft fit for the flight. I therefore felt a moral obligation to urge the seller to think of safety first.

Am I emotional about this? Yes. When my wife climbed out of the aircraft I saw a look in her eyes I have not seen since the night I knelt down on one knee to ask for her hand in marriage. I know how much this deal meant to her, and I feel horrible that we do not have the resources to spend $16K for the aircraft, $17K for a major overhaul, who knows how much for a prop (dinged up all over), and everything else.

Spending well over 200% of the vref value of the aircraft to make it safe and legal to me qualifies as a money pit. Considering all of the problems with the engine, flying with it is a gamble with one's life.

If the aircraft had checked out as it was presented to us (airworthy, well-maintained, and with hundreds of hours of service left on the engine), I would already be filling out the rest of the paperwork so my wife and I could complete the sale. Regardless, I am now at a point where we have invested more than 10% of the vref value of this aircraft in determining it is not the aircraft for us, and the seller has been compensated *very well* for his time and the use of the aircraft in flying from its base to my mechanic.

I guess you can say this has been a *very* expensive lesson in what things should make me walk away from an aircraft before investing a dime in a deposit, pre-buy inspection, etc.

Rudy

Rudolph,

I can recognize that you letter was written with the same passion with which you desired to make this plane your own. I can sense the bittersweetness of the decision.

Dang, I hate to let it go, but dang, I just can't see that buying it is a good decision.

One thing you said in your letter really punched me in the gut. Since you posted it on the forum, I don't mind addressing it here.

You recommended the current owner to turn their mechanic into the FAA for shoddy work. That makes me very angry when owners decide that if something isn't right, to go run to the feds. Before you blast on me some, I understand that there were a lot of discrepancies on this plane. Keep in mind that what you were given is one shop's opinion. I can almost guarantee you that if I took my 150 to the same shop a King Air goes to, there's no way I could afford the maintenance.

What it looks like to me, granted, from the outside looking in, is that your prospective purchase went through a very detailed inspection. Kudos to you for having that done. I'm sure you're relieved to have not fallen for such a "money pit." What happened, though, is this shop was allowed to judge this plane, and by default, judge the last mechanic to sign it off. Now, you're recommending that the airplane owner turn his mechanic in to the FAA (for bad maintenance, I suppose) without giving this guy a chance to explain his reasons.

Anyone that throws around such verbage as "I'll just call the FAA on him" (That isn't a direct quote from you, but from other conversations)is not welcomed to come into my shop. As airmen, we all live in a glass house. Pilots and mechanics alike. When one group begins to throw the other to the wolves, we will cease to become a cohesive, co-dependent unit and will fall apart, leaving an angry lot with our planes sitting rotten on the ramp.

Due to sheer numbers, there are more pilot infractions daily than maintenance mistakes. Only the most serious mistakes on either party result in death of injury. Good thing there is room for error, though that exposure is continually being minimalized by training and careful attention to the rules and regulations.

Do I think there is a time and place for putting the mechanic's head into the noose and giving the end of the rope to the FAA? Absolutely. You could replace the word "mechanic's" with "pilot's" in the last sentence and also be accurate.

I honestly think very few of us could take our airplanes into the likes of Cutter, MillionAire, or Signature and get a squeaky clean bill of health. I definitely wouldn't throw every mechanic that signed off those planes to the FAA. There are mechanics that have common sense enough to determine if it is safe. Perfect, no. Safe, absolutely. They're certain enough in the safety to sign their livlihood away...That's the chance we as mechanics take every time we sign a logbook.

I can understand your concerns, but I honestly think your decisions rest at "to buy, or not to buy." You've made your decision, and I can't say that I disagree with it at all. It is my perception, from reading what you wrote, that you were very ready to own, you've done your research, and you were prepared to give the right airplane a great home. Please don't be so ready to hang the one you feel is responsible for the sad shape of this plane. We have no idea what actually went on between the owner and mechanic. I'd be willing to bet that, despite the discrepancies noted, that the airplane was in no danger of hurting anybody. After all, it is the responsibility of the aircraft owner/operator to ensure the safety and airworthiness of the aircraft. Ignorance is no defense. Worst case, the offending owner drags his mechanic down with him. See what happens? Nobody wins. Bad deal.

Sorry I've rambled way too long. I know you don't mean any harm, and you may have judged me by now by what I've written. That goes both ways.

I wish you luck in your quest for ownership. It's a great and wonderful thing. I am a helicopter pilot and mechanic, too. I've been to the Robinson Maintenance course in Torrance, got my private ticket in an R-22. I'm also actively engaged in Emergency Medicine. We have a lot of the same interests, INCLUDING helping you find the right plane. We're on the same team. Please don't be so quick to throw the mechanics to the FAA. Honestly, mechanics don't like the FAA either. But there isn't a one of us that doesn't want the chance to make something right when it's wrong...pilots or mechanics.

AMEN GARY!
Liability is a major concern in everything from making popsicles to yes, maintaining airplanes. I prebuy'd 2 airplanes before finding 38Q; one just wasn't what I wanted, and one was ridiculous! Had hardware store pop rivets in the firewall doubler, automotive wire in cockpit, etc etc... MOST mechanics and I say most as in 99.9% are scrupulous as can be - the not so honest tend to be weeded out quickly... What I see most is un-approved owner maintenance - IE, I can fix that hangar rash with a junk yard part, then they screw up the rigging when they assemble it and VOILA - How could the mechanic miss that on the last annual? Who messed it up anyway? OH wait, no logbook entry for the tail ever being apart? Strange? Couldn't have been that way from the factory right?

All too often people point fingers at mechanics..and because of that, there are fewer and fewer that are willing to put their signature in a logbook..

Just the other day I saw a post about finding a mechanic to do owner assisted annuals, wonder why it's difficult?

I consult my mechanic on EVERYTHING... I tip him or buy him lunch when I have a couple extra $10.00 bills, and we've become friends. But the piece of mind he's given me both in maintenance and education - PRICELESS.. His policy - I don't mind helping you with maintenance and repairs, as long as I am consulted before and after... But repair something critical one time without consulting him he will send you elsewhere for your annuals and repairs in a heartbeat and who can blame him.. He shouldn't have to go looking for unapproved repairs nor should he be liable for them.

Dave

Rudy,
Please share with us how this transaction has changed the way in which you will look at any future prospective aircraft? What is now your criteria?
Thanks!

There is too much involved in this issue for me to attempt to completely convey the situation (I have mentioned probably 20% of the issues from the inspection), but to try to address a few things: 1) as far as I am aware, my mechanic can ground this aircraft since none of the recurring ADs have been addressed since the year 2000 (not to mention the fact that it does not have its airworthiness certificate or registration -- which the seller insists are in the aircraft). 2) when the same mechanic does an annual year after year after year and fails to address the same ADs time and time again, one needs a little bit of retraining here.

There are multiple checks and balances in my business. If I attempt a procedure on a patient and there is a bad outcome there are multiple levels of administration to review my actions and attempt to remedy the deficiencies in my skills. If this does not happen then there is the legal system, and finally the licensing boards.

Where are the checks and balances here? Who can one go to with a complaint about the quality of work done, aside from the FAA? This mechanic should not be working on aircraft if the condition of his work (rigging of controls, safety wiring, etc.) is this poor. At the very least, he should have some supervision and retraining to ensure his work meets the standard for such work.

If owners are not permitted to participate in the maintenance of their aircraft, how are they to live up to the standards for maintaining the aircraft in airworthy condition? On the other hand, I wholeheartedly support a mechanic refusing to do business with an owner who makes a boneheaded decision to pop-rivet a new panel onto the aircraft. I also completely understand the liability issues with a mechanic trusting an owner to assist with maintenance. Not every owner can be trusted to do this with reasonable prudence.

I know pilots have their fair share of stupid things they do. One airport around here has a few pilots who roll the plane inverted after taking off while still in the traffic pattern. If the only option to address repeated stupid decisions is to go to the FAA then I guess that is what must be done. All I ask is that people act with reasonable prudence in what they do. However, when people don't and it risks the lives of others then something must be done about the situation.

Believe me, I am not a proponent of more regulation from the government. I actually would prefer a lot less. However, until we can motivate people to do the right thing (like pay a little more for an annual so the ADs get fixed, or work a little harder and charge a little more to fix the ADs before affixing your signature to the logs) the government is bound to regulate more, and more, and more.

Are any of you scuba divers? Take a few minutes to look at recreational scuba as an industry. There is the same type of risk as in aviation -- you are in an environment where without the added equipment you will not survive long. However, there are no federal regulations of the industry aside from those dealing with pressurized cylinders of gas in general. Why? Because the industry does a pretty good job of policing itself. If I mixed tanks of enriched air for my students with the same lack of effort as the mechanic who maintained this aircraft, at a minimum PADI would require me to attend further instructor development training before continuing to teach.

I thank you for the education I am receiving about fixed-wing aircraft here. I still have a lot more to learn. One question I would like answered is this: if the vref value of an aircraft is $16,250 does that mean the amount I should pay for an aircraft that is barely airworthy? How much should I add for one maintained by an owner who *cares* about the aircraft?

I do not expect to find a perfect 150 or 152. I will most likely not look for one again for 6-12 months until I can save enough to purchase one that gets the green light from my mechanic, and it seems that I need to budget a lot more than I thought I needed. Paint, interior, and avionics do not impress me. I just want one that underneath the paint and cowlings shows me that somebody cares about that aircraft.

Rudy

1) I need to learn to do a thorough pre-flight inspection of this type. If it fails on pre-flight, that is one red flag.

2) I need to listen to my gut when looking at the logs. A zero-time overhauled engine (that turns out not to have a valid data plate) is a red flag unless the *manufacturer* gave it zero time.

3) Continuing with #2, if the annuals only indicate "I inspected the aircraft . . . and it's airworthy. Signature" for the last 10 years, and there is no mention of any maintenance aside from this, another red flag.

4) I will most likely write a longer purchase agreement next time. This time I did not specify that I *do not* take responsibility for the aircraft until the closing. I am fine paying for parking or other things, but last weekend the seller just dropped it off at the airport I use and told the FBO "he (me) will be responsible for this."

5) I will again do a title search and search of 337s.

6) I will use the same mechanic -- I want him to find that obscure safety wire way in the back corner that was missing. Hopefully the next aircraft will allow him to nitpick because there won't be major deficiencies to slow him down.

Rudy

And just how much are you willing to pay for, and maintain, the "perfect" system and the "perfect" airplane, Rudolph? Obviously you already believe that you are getting ripped off and you don't even own an airplane yet! I would be willing to wager one could take a brand new airplane right off the assembly line to this mechanic of yours and it still would not pass inspection!

I hope that it is not your intent, but you are insulting a lot of people here with your calloused comments, Rudolph! If you really want our help and opinions, please come down off of that throne of yours? Please?

I am going to go and play with my $16,000 death trap now before I really say something I might regret! Oh Damn! I can't! I am still waiting for a spinner to replace the one I pulled for just a few cracks!

Rudolph,

I would feel compelled to write something similar if I were faced with your situation. I wouldn't bring up the FAA. But I would certainly invite the owner to meet with your mechanic and discuss the findings as you suggested. Like others here mentioned, I'm sure the owner would be defensive. But I hope any of us who are not mechanics would feel appreciative of professional input as to the state of our aircraft. I have to put my children in my airplane and feel with relative certainty that they will be safe (I don't ignore the natural risks in life - but I don't keep them in padded rooms either). If the owner felt the aircraft was safe, then who knows who he is putting in this plane. Hopefully, even if he is upset, he will seek perhaps a third mechanic's veiwpoint.