| | Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 535 Member/500+posts | | Member/500+posts Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 535 | Please check out this 152 on ebay under aircraft SE. Item number: 4610184647. In the auction text under condition, the owner states 607.2 hrs SOH, 2594 TT on the engine. If you go to the question/answer section and read question #2 (that's me), it sounds as thought the engine had a top at the 607.2 time but in realty has not been overhauled in 2594 hrs. Do I understand that right?
Hanger empty for now
| | | | | Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 11 Member | | Member Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 11 | I believe this plane has been listed in the club classifieds, and may still be. The classifieds are currently not working, but I seem to remember that the ad there listed the hours as "STOH" instead of "since overhaul" as the seller has put in his ebay ads. Further, when this plane was listed on ebay in December as item number 4597616209, one of the seller's answers said, among other things, "The overhaul was an extensive top...."
I was interested in this plane for awhile, thinking that the 607.2 hours were SMOH, but personally lost interest when I came to the opinion there hadn't been a major in almost 2600 hours. | | | | | Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 535 Member/500+posts | | Member/500+posts Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 535 | In an auction for this a/c that ended 03 Feb 06, the owner states in an answer to a question: "It was logged as a Top overhaul, and was extensive but the bottom was inspected as well. As you know Top and Major are not 100% defined terms, just industry terms used loosely." Huh! | | | | | Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 18,962 Likes: 3 Member/15,000 posts | | Member/15,000 posts Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 18,962 Likes: 3 | Industry terms are used loosely, indeed, but I won't get into that! It's simply buyer beware!
New limits and serviceable limits are two different things in most cases. A certain amount of wear can be tolerated on most engine components, and these are known as serviceable limits. An engine can be disassembled and inspected, and even if wear is found, it can legally be reassembled and returned to service, as long as none of the worn components exceed serviceable limits. This could never legally be called an overhaul, even though all new consumables are (usually) used. All times keep accumalating uninterupted since the last real overhaul. the real problem is that parts that were barely within limits at the time of the inspection, are now surely worn beyond limits after 600 more hours! The engine still runs, and is worth core value, but that's probably about all that's good about it!
I have never understood the mentality of not properly overhauling a high time engine that is already disassembled.
I wonder what else they scrimped on? | | | | | Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,134 Member/1500+posts | | Member/1500+posts Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,134 | Industry terms are used loosely, indeed, but I won't get into that! It's simply buyer beware!
New limits and serviceable limits are two different things in most cases. A certain amount of wear can be tolerated on most engine components, and these are known as serviceable limits. An engine can be disassembled and inspected, and even if wear is found, it can legally be reassembled and returned to service, as long as none of the worn components exceed serviceable limits. This could never legally be called an overhaul, even though all new consumables are (usually) used. All times keep accumalating uninterupted since the last real overhaul. the real problem is that parts that were barely within limits at the time of the inspection, are now surely worn beyond limits after 600 more hours! The engine still runs, and is worth core value, but that's probably about all that's good about it!
I have never understood the mentality of not properly overhauling a high time engine that is already disassembled.
I wonder what else they scrimped on? While I agree with most of what Carl says above, you can have a legal overhaul of an engine to serviceable limits which resets the TSMOH clock. The chances of you going the full TBO is pretty slim but some parts have service limits that include quite a margin for safety, mom, and apple pie. The manufacturer specifies what parts have to be replaced, reworked, or just checked for service limits during an overhaul. Carl is right that just tearing down an engine and checking service limits and then reassembling does not count as an overhaul unless the entire list of things are done that the manufacturer specifies.
Tim
'76 C-150M, San Antonio
| | | | | Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 18,962 Likes: 3 Member/15,000 posts | | Member/15,000 posts Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 18,962 Likes: 3 | The manufacturer specifies what parts have to be replaced, reworked, or just checked for service limits during an overhaul. Thanks for clearing that up, Tim. I see where my statement was misleading. I meant it the way you explained it. You will notice I didn't mention replacing any "hard" parts ..... just an inspection.
Last edited by Carl_Chitwood; 02/07/06 07:03 AM.
| | | | | Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 360 Member/250+posts | | Member/250+posts Joined: Jun 2004 Posts: 360 | I have never understood the mentality of not properly overhauling a high time engine that is already disassembled.
Money Carl. To do all Continental require to qualify for a genuine "Major Overhaul" will cost anyone not able to contribute most of the labor himself at least twice what an IRAN does, perhaps approaching the total value of the plane. I doubt very much if the extra run time to the next overhaul or the increase in potential sale price will compensate. Granted there may be some gain in confidence in the engine, which may or may not be justified!! Joe 150F Then again what constitutes "properly" overhauling an engine? | | | | | Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,134 Member/1500+posts | | Member/1500+posts Joined: Dec 2003 Posts: 2,134 | I have never understood the mentality of not properly overhauling a high time engine that is already disassembled.
Money Carl. To do all Continental require to qualify for a genuine "Major Overhaul" will cost anyone not able to contribute most of the labor himself at least twice what an IRAN does, perhaps approaching the total value of the plane. I doubt very much if the extra run time to the next overhaul or the increase in potential sale price will compensate. Granted there may be some gain in confidence in the engine, which may or may not be justified!! Joe 150F Then again what constitutes "properly" overhauling an engine? I'm with Carl on this one. On a high time engine (or even mid-time) you'll spend a chunk of money to do the IRAN and have nothing to show for it in the way of capital improvement. If you need a top sometime in the future before TBO you will have spent almost all of the cost of the overhaul and not bought any additional TBO hours. Best just to bite the bullet and spend the additional expense to call it an overhaul. If the engine was recently overhauled, however, then the IRAN makes more economic sense.
Tim
'76 C-150M, San Antonio
| | | | | Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,657 Member/2500+posts | | Member/2500+posts Joined: Jan 2006 Posts: 3,657 | This kinda begs the question. When you have an engine that is over TBO, is it worth buying the plane, or should you just move on?
Trade-a-plane was offering a 152 that was fairly close to me (a 152) that had 2400 SMOH on the engine. Since their spec sheets showed that the TBO was 2400 hours I decided not to pursue the plane. Besides, the seller was asking the same price for a plane with a lot more time on the engine. For future reference, what should I do?
Pat
Never run out of altitude, airspeed, and ideas at the same time.
| | | | | Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 309 Member/250+posts | | Member/250+posts Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 309 | In my opinion, you did the right thing. Although you'll probably get a year or two from the engine, there is a very good possibility that you'll be overhauling it soon. Therefore, previous owner needs to come down in price to make the risks reasonable.
Tom Kozel
Pottstown, PA
150G N3771J
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