Club Homepage Forums Classified Ads Buy & Sell - Everything But Airplanes Missing Logs and the buying decision

Hello All:

I am in my first week as a member, just passed my instruments written and now looking for a 152 to train in and keep for a while. Question, are missing logs a deal breaker in the purchasing decision? if not how should this be factored into the decision? lets say the logs are missing for the first 10 years and the plane is an 1980 model?

Thanks

John

Only you can decide if it's a deal breaker.

Do you have copies of all of the 337's filed?
Do all of the installed modifications have paperwork?
Do you have ALL of the engine logs back to at least the last overhaul?
Missing logbooks are not uncommon. Are they dealbreakers? Sometimes....depending on the purchase price. If they're asking full retail price based on an evaluation service, then yes, in my opinion. But, if the seller recognizes that missing logs does drop the price, and is priced accordingly...and, all AD's are documented correctly, it may make sense to buy this plane, providing everything else passes the muster...

Everything Gary said, but one more thought ... are you buying to keep for a lifetime, or do you think you might sell in a few years? If you might sell it relatively soon, the missing logs might become your issue. If you have lots of the information Gary suggested, and you want to keep the airplane for lots of years (I use "lots" intentionally, to suggest that what one considers long term someone else might think short term) then the missing logs isn't as important. Most buyers will consider missing logs as a liability and will want a discounted price on that basis.

John,

It's not uncommon for an aircraft to be missing a couple of years of logs. Death of an owner (and the heirs don't know where the logs are), bitter divorces (where the wife withholds or trashes them), and bank repossessions often result in the logs and aircraft becoming separated. The older the missing logs are, the less revelence they have on the current state of the airplane. The only real value of having a complete history of a plane is if it is historical or an antique. Even then, the logs will have more "interest" value than anything else.

Since the missing logs are from the 1980s (and I'm assuming that the logs from 1990-ish to present are still available) I'd say it's not a big deal. It's doubtful that anything in the plane's first 10 years is still an issue. Nonetheless, the mechanic that you hire to do a pre-purchase inspection will investigate and determine if the plane's AD compliance is up to date or if the plane shows any serious damage that might have happened in its first ten years.

Harvey

Missing logs in the early years is not a deal breaker for me. Some mechanics and/or owners can be a little sloppy about keeping up with things and I can see with people going out of business, moving, etc. that the logs could get misplaced. Recent maintenance and TLC mean more to me.

One thing to consider...
Buying a plane with missing logs may be OK with you as a buyer, but be aware you are taking on this exception. Should you decide to sell the plane say, a year later...how will those missing records affect you as a seller? Just something to think about...

John,

I am one who purchase a plane with logs only representing about the 8 most recent years at the time of purchase, and a scattering of other misc paperwork (receipts, etc.) which turned out to be of some, but little value.

You can get a cd from FAA that will give you all of the 337's filed for the life of the plane, as well as a complete ownership history - I think it is about $10, and you can order it through the FAA website. A good investment regardless of how good the logs appear to be.

With this in hand you can compare the results of the cd against the plane to verify if there are any remaining undocumented features that you need to be concerned with from a paper trail perspective.

In my case, I had the engine replaced within the first 6 months, so that cured the engine log issue, as well as putting to rest all of the engine related AD questions.

In preparation for the first annual I had gathered in a binder a copy of every AD applicable to the plane, and prepared a spreadsheet for the A&P of the status as best as I could determine from the available logs. Instead of him having to do all of this research at an hourly rate, he was able to take my legwork and more easily go through and double check all of the AD's. I had him provide a new sign-off for EVERY AD issued. With all the research done, and since the plane was opened up for annual anyway, I think it was a day or less of his time to accomplish this. I have the peace of mind that the paperwork is now in order.

Lastly, I purchased the plane with the intention of keeping it long term, well aware that when I go to sell it may be an issue for some potential buyers.

All of the planes I have purchased (three so far), have a full set of logs. But having the logs are only useful if you can read and understand them, and be aware of what might be missing. (I'd never even heard the terms 337, AD, STC, POH.)

For the first plane that I purchased (when I knew nothing about what to look for), I hired a mechanic and pilot that I trusted to review the logs, and the mechanic to give the plane a annual condition inspection.

For the second plane, the logs were present, but over the next few months, my partners and I discovered a huge amount of undocumented work had been done on the plane. (A header gas tank was removed without an STC or 337 being filed or approved--somehow, three different mechanics with I/A over the past several years managed to give it an annual.) It's been in the shop for several weeks having all the undocumented work removed so the plane will meet its original certification.

For the third plane, the logs were present and had entires from the day it first flew until the final condition inspection before I bought it. But the logs made it clear that the last owner only made entries when he felt like it. He never recorded the date of oil changes or the type of oil used.

So, a plane can have a complete set of logs but they can be so incomplete as to be the same as logs not being present. And, as Gary pointed out in the first post, there's a lot of other paperwork that needs to be there, too.