Club Homepage Forums Classified Ads Buy & Sell - Everything But Airplanes First Time Poster / New Owner

Welcome to the club!

I'm finishing up my first year of ownership and I wish I'd gotten my plane a long time ago. It has turned out a lot less expensive than I thought it would be. I shore it with a partner that is also building an RV-6A. We've been friends for decades so the partnership route works well for us.

Dale - I've lived here most of my life and the Naval Aviation Museum has tons of memories from my childhood as well as being a favorite field trip location for my 3 yr old and me. When I was in the Navy I was stationed at Cecil Field in Jacksonville (not far from home). I've been back a few times and I'm afraid that my barracks didn't fare as well. The parking lot is still there but just empty fields where the barracks used to be.

I hope that holds true for me as well! I don't have a partner but and kicking the idea of putting it in the local flight school as a leaseback. I wouldn't have to rent it, just pay for fuel when I fly it so it would hopefully make me some money that I could reinvest in the plane and save up for the overhaul that would no doubt come much sooner. I'm just worried about some student breaking something! I'm still on the fence.

Gary Shreve probably can get you off the fence. He had a 152 that he leased to a flight school and a student crashed it. He came out OK with the insurance money, but there are other factors to consider. Gary is an A&P/IA and he did all the maintenance work on that plane. If you have to pay a mechanic to do maintenance work, you probably won't net much from the leaseback.

There was a recent discussion here of just instructing in one's own plane that included some talk of leasing the plane back.

I would not do it with my plane. I'd rather find two or three good pilots and form a partnership. If you know the other guys well, it can be as simple as just agreeing what to do around the table. Otherwise AOPA probably has some good partnership agreements. I can't fly the plane enough so having a couple of partners is beneficial. I want the plane to fly at least a few hours every month.

Primary training, however, is very hard on the plane and I would not want to let an FBO have it for general rental. If I had to put the plane up for rental to afford it, I wouldn't buy it in the first place and would just rent. You're probably ahead financially renting if you don't fly maybe 50 or 100 hours a year. When I was in college I worked at an FBO fueling planes in exchange for flight hours. I saw just how bad a plane can be abused when it is flown by some students that have no regard for other people's property and really find it funny to do bad things with a plane. Most are not like that, but it just takes one to mess everything up.

The nice thing about owning is having the plane always in good shape and available. I am always pleased when my bird starts on the first try, just like a car, rather than have the engine turn and turn as it happened with most of the planes I rented. I also like the shape the plane is in inside and out. I don't have to worry about someone throwing up in it (I've seen it happen to many first time flyers and students doing unusual attitude training). These intangibles for me make up the difference in cost between renting a few hours every year vs. owning. They would go away if I put the plane up for rent at an FBO. The nicer the plane, the less I would be willing to let casual renters use it.

I couldn't agree with you guys more which is why I'm on the fence. I don't need to put it in the leaseback in order to afford it...it's paid for. I just thought it would be a good way to offset some of the fixed cost and even make a small profit which I intend to put back into the plane. I've been renting for the past 2 years (how long I've been flying) and most people I've seen treat the planes as well as I do but I'm sure there are a few that don't. The Navy Flying club I belong to has had 2 broken 172s in the past year from hard landings. One just had a bent firewall but the other had a broken nose wheel and a prop strike (exited a 75' wide runway and hit a taxiway sign...how bad of a pilot do you have to be to veer off of a 75' wide runway??? That's an ocean of concrete!)

The other thing I'm considering is that it has 1.5k on a 2.4k TBO. By myself I could probably make it well past 2.4k which would last me the better part of a decade but if I put it in the school it will need one in a couple of years tops. But...theoretically the OH would be paid for from the revenue.

My wife is the one really pushing to put it in. She's just interested in saving money in our budget.

Wow, Michael. Your wife is pushing for you to put it in a flight school?

I bought my 152, which, at the time, was a stretch on our budget. I bought it with the sole intent of putting it into a flight school. Since I was a mechanic, I felt that I could keep up with the maintenance by myself, and could not only save money in the process, but might also make a small profit. Sounds like the way you're thinking right now.

The terms of a leaseback agreement are as varied as there are leasback operators. The NUMBER ONE key thing is to go into business with an operator that YOU ABSOLUTELY TRUST!!!!!!!!!!!! If you are suspicious of ANYTHING they do, don't enter into the agreement.

Insurance is very high for rental planes. Typically, the FBO takes 20 percent off the top of your revenues for their commission. Then, they deduct what they pay to have your plane insured, between 4 and 7 hundred dollars each month. Then, if they're having to lease tiedown space for your plane, you'll likely have to pay that, as well. Then, they subtract what fuel has been charged to your plane, sometimes adding a nickel per gallon fee.

So....as you can see, if your plane doesn't fly around 25-30 hours per month, you could end up owing the flight school money.

If you ever do go the leaseback route (it's not a bad investment with the proper precautions) make sure every detail is written down. When the crap hits the fan, people get amnesia real fast. If you'll be paying for the maintenance, remember oil changes will come almost bi-weekly, you'll have to keep up with your spark plugs (buy a second set), otherwise you'll end up missing flights due to rough mag checks. 152's are prone to fouling plugs, particularly with student renters unless you use the right plugs. Even then, you'll want to clean the plugs (swap out with your spare set) every 25 hours.

100 hour inspections come around and are a little more expensive on a 152 because the valve clearance has to be checked/adjusted every time. No one will take care of your plane the way you would. It's hard to dote on your "baby" on Tuesday, then by Friday, there's empty coke cans, coffee cups, oily paper towells, and oil bottles strewn all over your plane. Your windscreen will be scratched by people throwing headsets and clipboards on the glareshield. Your interior will be soiled by people walking across the ramp and dragging everything on their shoes into your plane.

But....let's say you're okay with all of that.

Prepare to be named in a lawsuit when someone crashes your plane and they die. If you can't handle that, don't do it.

Be prepared to cover the FBO's fixed expenses (insurance, tiedowns or hangar storage) in the event someone wheel barrow's down the runway, buckling your firewall, ripping out the nose gear, and trashes the propeller and engine. Sure, that's an insurance claim, but the other costs don't stop.

So, you're still going at it? Still want to leaseback your plane that you don't really have to? It's your call. It can be profitable if done carefully. Just remember, the first to be rented are the cleanest, best equipped planes. It will dramatically help if you stay after keeping your plane clean, wiped down inside and out. Good luck with your decision.

I'll find a picture of my 152 in the ravine with the tail folded up against the left wing for ya. It's a real tear-jerker...

Gary is brutally honest. I would NEVER lease a plane back/rent it out. No matter what restrictions you agree upon with the place you have it leased to, as soon as the plane is out of sight of the home airport ( downwind leg, actually) all bets are off. All you have to do is watch the crap on YouTube to see what people do to rental planes. You think all that acro is done in Aerobats? Another thing to consider is that any time YOU fly it, it's not making money...and it's possible they'll have it rented when you want to fly. Also, factor the weather- a couple of weeks of crappy weather and the plane sits on the ground, then when the weather is good you hope they fly the hell out of it to make up for the sitting on the ground half the month....
If you are an A&P you can work on the plane yourself to cut expenses, but you are just stacking more liability on your butt should someone screw the plane into the dirt....if you want to do the mx yourself, (or your own mechanic)..they might have their own maintenance shop, and perhaps need to keep them busy and won't allow outside maintenance ( they have liability, too).Also, if a radio dies, or the xpdr stops working, or anything else breaks, you have to fix it NOW, not wait until you have the money. Plan on changing tires very often as well. Ever see a new tire with a nice big flat spot on it because someone landed with their feet smashed on the top of the rudder pedals? Whatever you decide, crunch the numbers to see if leaseback is right for you. I've seen many airplanes owned by private individuals ruined on leaseback. Good luck, and welcome to the club.

Sorry about your plane Gary. You guys are most definitely pulling me to the NOT LEASING side of the fence.

Here's the deal that I was looking at. I took my private instruction at the school and know most of the instructors and chief instructor quite well. Right now they have 5 Warriors, 5 172s, and 2 150s on the line and could really use another 150/152 for light/female IFS students (military). The chief instructor owns one of the 150s and the A&P that works on my plane owns the other. I'm not an A&P but plan to help whenever possible if I DON'T put it in the school. I'm a little vague on the breakdown but the way I understand it here's the deal if I put it in...I get about 60% of the $99 rental fee and cover all maintenance with a nice discount on labor (50% I think but not sure), outside tiedown is free, I fly my plane for free+gas, and I go on their insurance which is in the neighborhood of $4k a year.

As much as I would love to have the plane pay for itself I'm terrified of all the stuff you mentioned. Even the A&P (who owns a 150 in the school) told me some horror stories.

Mike, I think you've answered your question there.