Club Homepage Forums Classified Ads Buy & Sell - Everything But Airplanes Buying away from home: How'd you do it?

Unfortunately, the Nashville area ain't exactly crawling with 150/152's for sale, particularly the years I'm interested in. When good deals do crop up, they're often in another state--sometimes many states away.

So what are the steps in pulling off a "distance purchase"? Quite honestly, I'm having trouble figuring out the logistics involved in the process.

What are some ways to make reasonably sure it's not a lemon before you spend all that money and time to fly out (most likely commercial, in my case) to see it?

Do people generally fly out round-trip first, give it a once over, then take a third flight back to ferry it home? Has anyone flown out one-way, and stayed through the inspections, etc.? Or do you get the inspection done before you fly out? I'm totaly clueless.

What's the best way to find a reputable mechanic to do the inspection, anyway?

What if the seller is in the middle of nowhere and you have to take three planes, a rental car, and a pack burro to get out to him? And then you have to keep the fact that you've "come all this way" from influencing your purchasing decision.

Anyway, you see my confusion. If you've got some good stories/tips/advice, post 'em here!

Thanks,

- Jeff

Tough one Jeff. There are a variety of ways to do it, each more expensive than the last so to speak.

1) You can get a club member to do the visual, then hire an A/P to do the pre-buy or annual, all while having a deposit in place and buy/sell agreement to give you some protection during the evaluation process. If it is clean...one way ticket and fly it home.

2) You can make all the arrangements for the pre-buy and probably even have that done in advance. Buy a round-trip or one way (some times round trip is cheaper than one way) and stay long enough for pre-buy then fly it home.

3) Get the pre-buy and such done and buy it sight unseen. It has been done successfully, but you would really want the right mechanic. Then you fly it or hire it done...your call.

Whatever you do, you can almost count on some squawks needing to be dealt with on your first annual or sooner. Just know that it will happen and don't worry about it, just be aware.

Good Luck on this.

Jeff

In a nutshell : very carefully.

I was lucky.

My deal is, I was going to purchase the rental 150 from the flight school I fly from, and work at. But about a week before the deal was going to be done, 97J got destroyed (I'm still ticked off about that!).

The same day I heard the news, I began hunting for a 67 model, particularly one that began with 3 and ended with J. 3997J. I found N3740J. In Gallipolis, OH. 5300 TT, 287 SMOH... sounds like a good deal for $19,000. Only a grand more than I would have paid for the 4200 TT 1,200 SMOH rental bird. Saw some pictures, looked good, called the guy up, the sheriff of Gallia County, OH. Sounded like a cool dude, asked some questions about the plane, decided it was a go. The same day a deposit for $1,000 was sent out.

3 weeks later, I was on a 1-way flight to the nearest commercial airport (a 45 min drive) and the Sheriff picked us up. I brought along a fellow line guy and commercial rated pilot to help out.

As soon as we rolled up to the airport the plane was as (she was away getting some radios done) I knew it was mine!

I inspected it, took the cowling off, looked in the nook and crannies, and she tasted good. Flew it back to it's home base, it flew well!

Asked to borrow the logs overnight, went through them , found she missed 2 annuals back in the 80s (even though it flew about 40 hours illegaly... oops!) Decided she was mine, called up the ATM (aka, my father) the money was wired and I was on my way. Besides some crummy (VFR) weather, the flight home was awesome and an adventure.

At home, the maint shop I work at did a post buy to see exactly what I got myself into... and luckily their opinion was the same as mine, a nice, tight bird.

That's the last time I will be that quick to buy and that trusting. Nothing bad came of it, and the aircraft is a good one, definately not a lemon (a Gremlin, yes, but not a lemon).

I was lucky with this one!!

But... it's the one I wanted, and it's the last one I want to own (meaning I don't need any other plane but this one!!)

Good luck!

Cool : all Jeffs

I bought my plane locally, so I don't have a personal experience with long-distance buying. But follows is a story that shows sometimes even the best-laid plan can still go wrong.

David Herman, moderator of the Yahoo Cessna Group, lives in Seattle WA. Back in the summer of 2001, he searched around and agreed to buy a 150 from a state back East. The seller agreed to deliver the plane to Seattle, with paid expenses and a one-way ticket from Seattle back to his home. He figured that it would take no more than a week of vacation to complete the trip.

When the seller was half-way to Seattle, the Sept. 11 event took place. The seller landed for fuel and couldn't take off. He waited a few days in a motel but everything was still grounded. With his vacation time running out, he left the plane at that airport and took either a rental car or bus home.

David was in a quandary: his newly purchased plane was stuck at a faraway airport with nobody to care for it, the one-way ticket that he bought for the seller was wasted, he had to pay extra motel expenses for the seller, who knew when the airspaces would be open again, and how he was going to get there to bring his plane home.

If I remember correctly, GA activities resumed after about 10 days, David got a local CFI to fly him out to retrieve his airplane. I'll bet those were 10 longest days in his life.

Moral of the story: the best plan can go horribly wrong due to unforseen events happening at a place far away.

At the same time, my bird was at that same airport getting some avionics work done. I may have been able to take a bunch of digipics for him had I known he was looking at it.

Like's been said before, ask the Club members for help: there's enough of us that someone might be close enough to act as a set of unbiased eyes for you.

Greg - the fact I found your plane there was extremely coincidental... I was looking around to find the Sheriff, walked into this hangar (ok, it said employees only ) And THERE IT WAS! The tech was tinkering with the panel. Nice looking bird too

I have a few stories for you on this one:

When I bought my 172, which was my first plane, I was lucky. The plane was a 1 1/2 hour drive away. I called the guy up, got a few details to make sure it was worth seeing, but didn't ask a whole lot of questions. I hopped in the car, drove out to see it and offered him on the spot. Came down a few days later w/ my mechanic and we did a pre-purchase. That was easy because it was close.

When I bought the 152, I called the guy and he sent me some old pictures. I was in So. California and he in eastern Wyoming. I had to call him quite a bit and it was tough to get good answers out of him. I felt it was a good bet anyways and found a mechanic out there locally that would be able to do the pre-purchase. Flew out there and the plane was ok, but some things were not mentioned or as described. Still I had spent all that money, plus the excitement factor, so I had the mechanic go ahead. He found some things, but I later found out there was a lot that he did not find. In reading the logs in detail, I also found that he and the owner had done business on the plane frequently in the past and that they must have known each other although they did not act like it. It has cost me close to $6K to get N714VG to what I consider to be impeccable mechanical condition. I could have avoided that by being a more savvy buyer.


The third plane I bought was a Grumman Tiger. I was in in Southern California and the plane was in Nebraska. It was February. I called the owner and spent a good deal of time talking and emailing him. He sent me lots of hi resolution pictures that I could zoom in on and lots of detailed information. He had no problem in answering my questions no matter how many and how detailed. THAT helped immensely in helping me establish what this plane was about. I was fairly sure this was the right one for me so I booked a flight out there w/ my mechanic (yup, I took my own mechanic this time) and we shared a room etc. He quoted me a straight up fee for the trip and inspection and I paid his airfare and gave him an expense travel allowance. The plane was a cherry. Ended up we couldn't bring it back that trip, so I flew out on the airlines again on my own a few weeks later and picked it up.

When I sold the Tiger, the guy that bought it from me was from Oregon. We talked a bit on the phone. I set up a very detailed website on it (yes, information does sell as long as its a good story you have to tell) and he came down to see and fly it. He screwed up by having some mechanic neither of us know do the pre-purchase. This guy took him to the cleaners (while I held onto a $3,000 cash deposit for security) with a bill that was close to $1,000 to replace stuff that did not need replacing. What is more, he did this replacement stuff without the buyer's or my permission which was against the terms of our pre=purchase agreement. He refused to release the plane and threatened to put a lien on it at which point the buyer coughed up the $1,000 and all was well. I did not have to pay for any of those "unairworthy" fixes because the prepurchase stipulated that I would fix any "Squawks" using my mechanic. Point, is, the buyer would have been better off, in my book, to have his mechanic come down and do the pre-purchase.

I have lately been looking for both another Grumman Tiger and another 172M model and have done a fair bit of calling around and in one case traveled to see a plane.

Here are some tips I can offer from all of these collective experiences:

1. Talk to the seller, his wife, his mechanic, and anyone else you can dig up that is associated w/ the plane and ask a lot of questions on condition, history, etc. Don't be afraid to get really aggressive with the questions and to be too detailed and to press them for answers. Be respectful, but go for the information. The more info you have, the better position you are in to make a decision to go see it.

2. Get as many high resolution pictures of the plane that you can. Use them - zoom in on them to see the things you want to see.

3. If possible, get a person that has absolutely no interest in the plane or transaction to lay eyes on it. Give them some questions to go find out for you (does it have shiny aluminium in the wings and tailcone, any exterior corrission, glass condition . . .foggy, scratched, crazed or crystal clear, like new ?, describe all dings, dents, damage to exterior, paint condition,, firewall condition, etc. . . . a club member would be great. I don't recommend having a mechanic on the field look at it for you because they might have the mind that if they can steer you into coming out there then they will be the one that can do your pre-purchase.

4. It does pay to get copies of the logbooks. Look back at least 5 years worth. Beware of planes with "rubber stamped" annuals. Look for planes that have had a consistent maintenance and upkeep record. A plane that has had a lot of things fixed on it within the last five years is a usually a good thing, not a bad, because it means a lot of the broken stuff has been searched out and taken care of. For example, that Tiger I bought had a TON of money invested in fixing up everyday things on it within the last few years of ownership. When I got, it there was nothing left to fix. Same thing w/ my 152 now. Paint and interior are not 10's (I'd say they are a solid 7) but baby the plane has nothing left to fix 'cause I fixed it all in the past two years I've had it.

5. Go with your gut. If you feel like you simply are not getting the information you want or need or that the seller is not answering your questions properly or to your satisfaction and you can't get them to, then mark that one off your list. It ain't worth the time and money you will spend to go see it. You need to be able to discern what this plane is before you go see it and use the trip to see it just to confirm you are right. Don't travel to see if the plane might be what you are hoping it is - it gets too expensive that way.

I've also found that if you have time, sooner or later, that right plane will show up relatively close to where you live and when it does, be ready to jump and don't be afraid to offer what it is worth. Time and the money to travel back and forth can get mighty expensive.

Hope this all helps !

Even more detailed about who to ask about the airplane.

THE LOCAL LINEGUY!

The more knowledgable ones (like me) know the airplanes based at the airports we work at. Hell, I know the serial numbers of 3/4 the 150s at my airport....

Anyway, lineguys are a good source of info when looking for a plane!

First, know what you're looking for, and don't get distracted!

When I started looking, my reguirements were simple! Gotta be cheap! I only had $15K cash to play with, and didn't want to finance. That narrowed the market considerably. Realizing that a large percentage of what you pay for in most aircraft is cosmetic (paint, interior, hangar rash) I was prepared to accept virtually anything, as long as it was dependable and solid! After all, my goal was to fly my own aircraft; not make the cover of "Plane and Pilot"! I soon had a list of maybe a dozen aircraft that fit that category (web search for "Cessna 150", Trade-A-Plane, etc.). I started making phone calls, and eliminating prospects. It soon became apparent there were 3 kinds of sellers. The first was the obnoxious type! "You do everything my way, give me unrefundable money, and I might let you buy my plane!". Forget them! Then there was the "This is a great buy, regardless of the fact it hasn't flown in 20 years, and has missing parts that you can buy anywhere" types! Don't buy their problems! The third type is the only one I would ever buy a plane from. Up front and above board about everything (there are honest sellers out there). Eager to answer questions. Wants a fair price for his bird, but will negotiate small discrepancies.

I found 84G through Trade-A-Plane in mid-state New York. Tom was easy to talk to, and we actually struck up a friendship over the phone. He sent pictures of everything I asked about, and gave detailed answers to all questions. I even talked to his mechanic, who had been signing off the annual for several years. Tom was willing to let my mechanic do a pre-buy/annual, and would make good on needed repairs, if any.

I loaded up my flight bag and bought a one-way ticket to New York. Tom picked me up at the airport and drove me to the the field where his plane was tied down. We pulled a few panels, and I did a quick inspection on the aircraft myself (I've been around airplanes since 1968, and I'm a licensed mechanic since 1979). No surprises! Everything that was obviously wrong had been fully disclosed, with no downing discrepancies. We test flew the airplane and everything worked properly. By now, it was getting late, so Tom put me up for the night while I looked over the logs. Not perfect, but none are! Just a minor miscalculation of total time, carried forward since 1978. I paid the $14,500, got my receipt and bill of sale, and we left for the airport to fly back to Florida with my new toy!

I gotta tell you, that is the greatest feeling I have ever had (other than the birth of my 3 children). Flying my own plane home on a long cross country for the first time was glorious, and I wouldn't have missed it for two Cessna's! I stopped overnight in Virginia to visit my Daughter and Grandchildren, then left for home (after having a gascolator O-ring replaced). The rest of the trip was uneventful (except for the door-to-door smile I couldn't get off my face)!

Don't be bashful with the seller. Ask questions, and get answers. Discuss what's negotiable and what's not. Don't get on that airliner with any question unanswered. Trust your gut! If you get a bad feeling, it's probably a bad deal. Treat people the way you want to be treated, and expect the same in return. Honesty is non-negotiable!