Club Homepage Forums Classified Ads Buy & Sell - Everything But Airplanes FSDO follies, part 2

Periodically the subject of ramp checks and checkrides with the FAA comes up and many have had varying experiences with the FAA as to their attitude and fairness. I myself have had to schedule a retest for my A&P certificates due to the local FSDO's decision to retest 1400 mechanics who received their certification testing through the single DME here in San Antonio. This DME had been testing mechanic applicants for a number of years during which the FAA supposedly monitored and audited his operation and records. For me it's little more than a hassle/inconvenience, but to many others who are busy earning a living as a mechnanic, it's more.

One of our glider pilots had an unfortunate accident in a motorglider earlier this year in which the tail departed and he had to activate the ballistic chute to save himself. The FAA has questioned his piloting ability and has required him to take a 709 ride to prove his competence. This was expected.

I'll not go into details but I personally observed the process and it was abundantly clear to me that the pilot examiner was determined to pink slip this pilot from the getgo. The examinee could have been Chuck Yeager or Neil Armstrong, no matter what, this guy was going to issue a pink slip because he just knew in his heart that the examinee had screwed up and that belief would be reinforced by a failed 709 examination and ticket suspension/revokation.

The major lesson to be learned from this is: the FAA is not your friend. Say little, as everything you say will be used against you and often it will be the only evidence the FAA will get. If you've just had an accident, you may be suffering from shock and say things that are wrong and actually impede the safety investigation. Consult an aviation lawyer. Do not hand over your license when "asked" to surrender it. You can let the FAA physically examine it but be sure to make it clear that you are not surrendering it. If you are required to surrender it, insist on seeing official paperwork requiring you to surrender it. They will try to intimidate you to voluntarily surrender your license because it saves them the effort of due process. Know your rights and insist on them.

I apologize to those FAA employees who are fair and reasonable. I am sure there are many I would be honored to drink a beer with but at least in my FSDO, I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could throw them.

Is that before or after the checkride?

Sorry for posting this thread to the wrong forum. Can a moderator move this to "Everything Else"? Thanks

Tim,

Do you have any evidence or knowledge of any pilot who has ever had an FAA inspector take and keep (or attempt to keep) the pilot's certificate when the pilot handed it over as part of a ramp check or other request to examine the certificate?

I've been trying for over 20 years to find someone this has happened to. It seems to be an urban myth that won't die.

Under the FARs you cannot "surrender" your certificate in any way other than in writing - and the writing has to have some very specific language in it. The FAA regional counsel I asked about the subject said that if he ever heard of any inspector attempting to keep a pilot's certificate under a pretext of surrender or any other fashion, the inspector's next job assignment would be in Nome, if he were lucky.

FAR 61.27 Voluntary Surrender or Exchange of Certificate
(a) The holder of a certificate issued under this part may voluntarily surrender it for:

(1) Cancellation;

(2) Issuance of a lower grade certificate; or

(3) Another certificate with specific ratings deleted.

(b) Any request made under paragraph (a) of this section must include the following signed statement or its equivalent: “This request is made for my own reasons, with full knowledge that my (insert name of certificate or rating, as appropriate) may not be reissued to me unless I again pass the tests prescribed for its issuance.”

I've run across my share of excellent, mediocre and crummy FAA employees. I've filed a complaint about one and although it didn't get him fired, it helped get him transferred. The FAA has a job of enforcement and improving safety. It is not your friend, although it can provide a heck of a lot of good information. Any dealing with the FAA in which there is any question of a violation of a regulation of competence to operate an airplane should be done with great caution. That being said, there are many things to worry about when dealing with the FAA, I don't think that having an inspector attempt to keep your certificate is one of them. We need to focus on worrying about the right things.

Best regards,
Rick

Tim,

I'm really interested in the 709 ride you described.

I've had friends go through them and I've been retained by pilots who were required to go through them. None of the pilots had any problem and each one came away saying the inspector took some pains to keep the session low key and low stress. The inspectors I know who give the rides say they rarely see a problem, and when they do it's usually a guy who is pretty old and hasn't admitted to himself that it's time to stop flying.

Nevertheless, I know there are some hideously bad inspectors out there who have been known to unload on pilots they don't like and the 709 ride is potentially a vehicle to do so. I've seen inspectors go after pilots, I just haven't seen the 709 ride used to do it.

Can you tell us more about this situation?

Thanks,
Rick

Rick,

I don't know of any actual incidents where an FAA employee "tricked" someone into surrendering their license on the pretext of only examining it. This FAA employee asked the examinee to voluntarily turn in his license to him on the spot. If that was an illegal request, I wouldn't doubt the examiner didn't realize it as he's been called out before for requesting things outside the PTS or requesting a questionable maneuver given excessive winds (eg. downwind landing after a takeoff emergency).

Since this is an ongoing case, I don't feel comfortable detailing the questions asked or the particulars. The pilot in question will be going to another district office to accomplish his 709 retake or whatever the process is to clear his license as he is really upset about how this is going here. He's tried to be upfront about everything only to have anything he's said thrown back at him as proof of pilot error even though it could be taken otherwise just as reasonably. For the oral, I would venture to say that if every PP candidate were asked the "airworthiness" questions that were supposedly missed, not a single one would pass. It went well beyond, what's an AD or what inspections must an aircraft have.

Rick,

Just a thought here. Could it be that you have more favorable experiences in Alaska with the FAA because..........well.........it's Alaska?

Bill
Grants Pass, Oregon

Tim,

I'm glad to hear the pilot has arranged for a retake of the 709 ride in another district. Let's hope he gets a fair exam.

Best regards,
Rick

Bill,

I may have misspoken in a post. My experiences with the FAA have been in the lower 48.

I've certainly heard some "interesting" FAA stories from Alaska, particularly in the bad old days of the early '80s after the Cerritos mid-air and Congress had come down on the FAA to go after pilots more aggressively. And which caused no end of problems...

Best regards,
Rick