Club Homepage Forums Classified Ads Buy & Sell - Everything But Airplanes C150K Logbook Fraud

I recently looked at a C150K that was in very good condition. This plane had a make-over in '94 including, paint, engine, interior, etc. It was advertised at having no damage history. I believe the owner was genuine when he gave me this info. To protect the innocent I will not give names or numbers.

I was going to make an offer on it, but when I did a tail number search I noticed it had a minor fender bender in '70. Seems a student bumped a Bell 47. Not a big deal in my eyes, as I actually expected to find something on 35 year old plane.

The big problem was a second entry that made reference to inflight structural failure, main spar cap broken, buckled airlerons, and buckled wing skins. When I looked at the plane, before I even saw the NTSB report, I looked at the "lines" of the wing looking for damage, rivets replaced, etc., but I saw nothing.

After my initial viewing I told the owner about the NTSB reports. He looked at his records and gave me the name of the mechanic that did the work. I believe this mechanic was IA also. I found his number, called him up and he admitted that he swapped the wing on this plane with one from another plane. I said there was no reference to this in the log book. He stated that it was possible that he didn't consider this a big enough issue to make an entry...?

Correct me if I am wrong, but if you have to make an entry for an oil change, shouldn't a wing swap ring some bells?

Now, to me this seems to be a clear case of fraud. I have decided not to purchase this plane because of the obvious resale problems. What recourse does the owner have? What does everyone think about this?

I have just joined this site and the information that I have learned has MORE than save me the $25 membership!

Thanks,
Tim Hynes

Too many G's pulled? Severe turbulence? I have never heard of repairs for an "inflight structural failure" on a 150, although it certainly seems possible! My question is how do you experience enough G's to severely damage only one wing, and not do any damage at all to the other? How old are the repairs? Perhaps the 1970 "fender bender" did more damage to this wing than was actually found and repaired, leaving it in a weakened condition. Sounds like the damage was limited to the outboard wing section, in any case.

Replacing a badly damaged wing with another serviceable unit is little different from a legal standpoint than replacing an alternator, engine cowl, windshield, or anything else on the aircraft. The insurance company may have opted to replace, rather than repair the wing. The important thing is that the repairs are properly performed and documented. I can't judge the mechanic without seeing his actual logbook entry's in this matter, but I would certainly have made mention of installing a "serviceable wing". I suppose a wing swap could be logged as "repaired or replaced wing structure", but doesn't adequately describe the nature of these repairs.

That said, I think you are correct in your assumption that most 35 year old aircraft have something undesireable in their history, documented or not. That is one reason why a thorough pre-buy is important, whenever possible. Damage history doesn't mean an aircraft is not airworthy. It just means you have to verify the completeness and quality of all repairs. Properly done repairs can sometimes have higher quality (and value) than the original factory assembly. 150/150's or taildragger conversions are a prime example. Many (not all) of these aircraft were damaged, with the damage replaced and repaired by the modificatons. I have one in work myself, and I will be proud to fly it!

It is perceived by most that aircraft with damage history are less desirable. I think the truth is that aircraft without damage history are more desirable (but less plentiful). One flys as well as the other and can give comparable service. It's all in ones perception of worth.

Hi Tim,
I'm sure others will correct me if I'm wrong but for what it's worth:
I found out after I purchased my 152 that a no fuel situation resulted in an off airport landing with significant damage in it's first year. I believe that the previous owner was unaware. A search of FAA records returned nothing but later, a check of NTSB reports gave me the information. Nothing was mentioned in the logs and no 337's were filed.
What I found out was at the time of the accident, if the repairs were made by an authorized Cessna repair station, then the work order could substitute for the 337 and log entries. Of course this is a big loop hole in that it relies upon the owner to keep the work order with the logs and advise a future buyer of the accident. Not likely in the days before computers and access to federal records. The shop is only obliged to hold on to the records for three or five years. I have no concern that the repair was anything less then what Cessna required, given the fact it was an almost new airplane and the bank held the note at that time.
I don't know if this situation has changed.

harry

As an innocent student pilot but with experience buying vehicles other than airplanes, and having done at least some research on how to buy an airplane, I asked the seller if 24F had damage history. He said NO. After buying the airplane I did a search and found two NTSB reports. Upon confronting the previous owner I was informed that these do not constitute "damage history" even though the nose wheel collapsed buckling the firewall at which point the plane was sent out for repairs and paint, etc. Also, a wing tip had been repaired, another NTSB report.

I find it strange that this type of reported "damage" is not officially considered "damage" and hence the plane can be advertised NDH.

I have to chime in here.

I am in the midst of selling 37F "Putt Putt." If I took the smae approach these sellers did, I could say NDH. In fact, 37F did have a landing accident in the 1970's where a right wing was rebuilt, the prop was straightened. That was over 30 years ago and is documented and listed on the NTSB web site.

But I can't do that in good honesty and faith. I listed it as having damage.

Sunday morning I showed it to a prospective buyer - we discussed this very subject, along with other issues related to honesty. Face it - no matter how hard we try and no matter how much research we do, there is a certain amount of faith.

Personally I go with the honesty policy. I tell them what I know, and show them the 337 for the repairs.

Actually, the NTSB is pretty specific on how much damage requires a report and when, and the FAA isn't always involved. An unoccupied aircraft substantially damaged on the ground may not require involvement by either agency, as long as an operating aircraft wasn't involved. There would probably be no "official" damage history, but it should still be reflected in the logs.

Technically, most advertisements quoting NDH means No Damage due to Hail! The airplane could have been dismembered by a tree line at the end of the runway and still be "NDH". But, to sell something specifically as having not been repaired (due to damage or whatever he chooses to call it), knowing that it has been repaired is just plain dishonest. It's crazy, but I know a lot of otherwise great people who feel justified in hiding the facts during a sale! I wasn't raised that way. Mom would come down from heaven and beat my @$$ if I did something like that!

This was talked about some time ago on this board but I can't remember when.
I do know that charles had the reason that no 377 would need to be filed but a logbook entry stating that the
wing was changed should be in the log books. If for no other reason than to let you know when it was done.

How long ago was the wing changed? assuming it was in the 70's thats 30 years of flying. I think the repair has proven it self.
I would not walk from this bird, but use this found info as a negotiating tool.

Some info here: FAA Form 337: When is it required ? [awp.faa.gov]

I think that many times people (prospective buyers) place to much importance on "damage history". I have seen where several individuals have stated that they didn't buy an airplane or quit looking at a particular airplane because they found it had some damage in the past.
Let me tell you my story. I purchased a 150/150 from a man in Oklahoma. When I went there to pick up the airplane it looked good probably the cleanest in behind the bulkhead of any airplane I have looked at.No corrosion at all and a quick look through the logs showed no problems and the seller said that there was no damage history.
After getting the airplane home my mechanic and I went over it closely with the same result except that we did find a small almost obscure notation in the logs where it had had some damage. This damage was repaired very well.
I might have refused to buy the airplane if I had known about it at the time of the sale but I am so glad that I didn't find out about it until after I was the official owner as I love the bird and consider it ideal for me and my flying.
Incidently the airplane is a 1968 and the damage was done and repaired in 1968 so I figure if it hasn't fallen apart by now it most likely won't and I have flown about 8 fairly long cross country's and one long, long cross country. Also had it in some fairly turbulent air. It's still together and coming to Clinton in July.
Dale Larsen

Well, it would seem to me that replacing a wing with another servicable one would warrant a logbook entry! Was there a yellow tag?

I am an A&P and I sure would make a log book entry!!

My present airplane was landed in a parking lot, no damage except for the engine which ran out of oil due to loose drain plug, and was disassembled for removal, and that is all in the log book.

George