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In my daily quest to find just the right 150/152 I came across a listing for a 1979 C152. Good looking pictures and sort of regular antique radios. I sent the seller an email asking about damage history. He responded that the log books show some damage to the right wing.

Well they should. They should also show repairs to the crumpled firewall from the accident when a student flipped it after hitting a snow bank. He didn't mention that being found in the logs. Wonder why?

Thanks to the remarkable resources of the web site with all the accident/incident information I was able to learn a bit more about the airplane than the seller was willing to tell.

Larry,

Great points! Good observation....too bad the seller had to hide that from you - I consider that unethical if he knew but selected not to inform you.

Having never dealt with a "crashed plane" like that, it would be interesting to see what folks think of purchasing such an aircraft IF the plane was rebuilt and certified to fly again...

I know nothing about getting general aviation planes with major damage back into "airworthy" condition, but assume the owner would have to go through major hoops with the FAA to get the plane recertified?

As long as the buyer KNEW the plane had damage, and the damage was fully rectified, would there be any other reason to refrain from purchasing such a plane given the price was right?

Having flown some previously "banged up" USAF planes, I don't think I'd have a problem buying the right plane at the right price if it was truly repaired.

Thoughts? Anyone with any experience good or bad out there?

Thanks - MM

Good idea Mike.

I would certainly like to know what others in the club think about buying aircraft rebuilt from wrecks.

There's a 150J on the internet right now with relatively low TT and 17 hours on a major. The plane looks good but was rebuilt after a noseover landing. Everything had to be rebuilt - nose gear, front end, prop, glass, wings, tail empennage.

But the price is low.

How about a horror story ... I may have related this before, but it is a good case in point.

A friend of mine decided he wanted a 180 or 185. He spent a goodly amount of time just finding one for sale, but finally found a likely candidate in a southern state (Mississippi, I think).

The airplane had some damage history. It had been tied down during a hurricane and had been bounced up and down. This had resulted in damage to the landing gear box (according to the log books). The books indicated that the damage had been repaired in accordance with the guiding regulations and documents. In addition, the engine had been overhauled.

It was a beautiful airplane and Tom fell in love. He had a pre-buy inspection done that returned a clean bill of health, so he plunked down his money.

The first sign of trouble showed up on his flight from the south to Washington state. On his pre-flights he was noticing some glitter on the dip stick. Not good.

Upon arriving home he had his mechanic look at the engine. It turns out the "Overhaul" was a disassemble and inspect. The engine was shot. Disappointed, but game, Tom had the engine and propeller overhauled.

He happily flew this airplane all over the place, into big airports and no airports at all (it IS a 180), for a year. Time for the first annual.

He delivered the airplane to his mechanic for the annual. The following day, the mechanic called and informed Tom that there was no way he could sign this airplane off as airworthy.

The damage to the gear box had not been properly repaired. The cracks had simply been stop-drilled. Tom called the previous owner and was told "tough noogies, you bought it, its yours". Tom's next call was to the FAA.

An FAA inspector showed up to take a look. I happened to be hanging around. It was interesting. The inspector found that not only had the gear box cracks only been stopped drilled, there had been damage to the longerons that run under the cabin that had not been repaired at all. One reasonably hard landing, or moderate turbulance (the struts terminate in the gear box) and this airplane would have come apart.

The FAA promised dire consequences to all of the people involved, including the previous owner who was a commercial pilot. Great news, but not much help to Tom.

He had the choice of scrapping this airplane and starting over, or sinking a BUNCH of money into repairs. In the end, Tom decided to have it fixed. The FAA inspector allowed a ferry permit and Tom gingerly flew the airplane to P.Ponk (yes, the famous engine builder) on Camano Island.

P.Ponk ended up, basically, replacing everything from the firewall to the first bulkhead (that would be just behind the baggage compartment). In disassembly P.Ponk discovered that the door posts had also been damaged and stop-drilled. So even they had to be replaced. At one point you could walk through the suspended fuselage.

It all went back together and Tom now has a beautiful (but expensive) 180. He ended up getting some money from the previous owner, under pressure from the FAA, but it wasn't much. I don't know what the previous owner, his mechanic, and the mechanic who did the pre-buy are doing for a living now.

How did this happen ... the mechanic who did the "repairs" was related to the owner. The mechanic who did the pre-buy was related to the mechanic who did the "repairs".

The moral, if you are going to buy a plane with some damage history, make sure a qualified, thoroughly disinterested third party takes a very close look.

Reg

Mike,

I feel like the seller, an aircraft dealer/broker, was being less than candid but I could be wrong. Maybe he didn't know the whole history of the plane. Maybe he looked into the log books until he found the damaged wing issue and stopped there. But from the accident/incident report I found thanks to this wonderful website, the firewall damage and possible other damage would have been nearby in the logs since they all came from the same incident.

It was one of those "aircraft was substantially damaged" notations in the NTSB accident report. The good news, I guess, was that the accident was in 1996 and presumably the airplane was made whole again and has been flying for 12+ years. Another possibility is that it was just put back together after a long fallow period.

Wow!

Indisputable proof that you need a pre-buy BUT it must be from someone with no relationship to the seller or the plane.

Pardon me, but wouldn't that be considered fraud and possibly conspiracy to commit fraud? The plane clearly was not as represented. Buyer beware, but c'mon now!

As for buying airplanes with damage history, I've done it and I'm still flying it! I even spent a boat load of money putting a bigger engine on it! In my case though, the damage was old, the plane had a long service history since being repaired and several mechanics have inspected the repairs. I decided it was irrelevant and purchased the plane anyway and it's given me a dozen years of faithful service.

It's all in who you are dealing with I guess. Larry, when you found out there was more to the story than the seller was admitting to, I think you did the safe thing and walked away. If the seller lied about the extent of the damage, what else is he hiding?

If I were considering buying a plane that had been wrecked and rebuilt, several things would factor into my decision. How old is the damage? How many different IA's have seen the plane since its return to service? If it's only been annualed by the same guy who rebuilt it, I'd be leery. Even if that guy has been flying it for years, I'd still have an independent IA do a thorough pre-buy inspection. Who did the rebuild would also be a factor. Up in Greeley there's a shop, Beegles Aircraft. They have a reputation for doing good work and I've flown at least one plane rebuilt by them. If the plane had been rebuilt by them or someone else with a similar reputation, that would go a long ways to easing my mind.

Since you're in the UK and I assume the plane is here in the US, just "walking" away is probably the best choice. There's too much leg work to do and an ocean in between in this case.

Please pardon my saying so, but back when I was selling 72G, if the very first question from a potential buyer was, "Does the aircraft have any damage history?" I promptly responded that I was sorry but I believed that the airplane was already sold. Even though 72G had no major damage history.

For, in my opinion, such an opening question leads me to believe that the potential buyer is either uninformed or one that would be too persnickety. Haunting me after the sale with every little thing he, or she, found wrong with the 30+ year old airplane. Either way, a hassle in which I can easily do without. Personally, damage history is not an important question. "Does the airplane presently have any faults that I should be aware of?" would be a more appropriate question.

Again, I apologize if this sounded a bit "uppity."

Bill
Grants Pass, Oregon

My first plane, a cherokee 140 had damage in 1967 (hit power lines), three months after it was delivered. To make matters worse, there were no records between 1967 and 1984. By the time I bought it in 2000, it had been completely rebuilt by the prior owner who had immaculate records from the time he acquired it in 1984. It was a risk, but the plane was in great shape, and it had been flying for 33 years since the accident. I bought it anyway and was extremely happy that I did. When I sold it, lots of people asked about damage history I don't believe it was a major factor in their decision to buy or not to buy.

My 152 was totaled for hail damage, but the owner elected to use the insurance proceeds for a new interior and paint job. The dimples on the tops of the wings are barely noticable and I think he made the right decision in not reskinning. I surely have never regretted the purchase.

Here is my take on damage history. Growing up we were poor. We built one pickup out of several, Cars the same way. I still rebuild a lawn mower or other item from a damaged or scrapped item. If everything is repaired properly it is not an issue. Most real repairs turn out as good or better than the factory.
When you are involved in a car accident do you repair it or throw it away? If damage history scares someone that much then you should throw it away and buy new. I personally do not have an issue with this if it is done properly. Drilling holes to stop cracks or pop rivets to hold it together won't fly in my book.