Club Homepage Forums Classified Ads Buy & Sell - Everything But Airplanes Issues on a 150 I might purchase

My guess is that your proposal won't be well received.

When I sold my 150, you wouldn't believe some of the demands potential buyers made.

You desperately want this plane. But I think, in your heart, you already know that this isn't the one.

Steven,
As an A&P it would be really hard for me to fill out a 337 on a repair that someone else made unless I could check it out in detail, much less get an AI to sign it off behind me. Depending on where this damage was, it will be very difficult to see the whole repair. That said, and to sound like an echo from the rest of the guys, there are plenty of 150's out there. Another thing that might just get you over the edge of decision, pull out the seats, take up the carpet enough to pull the inspection panels up over the landing gear and take a good hard look at the gearboxes and surrounding area. The older 150's with the flat gear can take a pretty good licking, but are also known to aquire damage to this area so if the seller won't let you look into this area, don't even hesitate to walk.
Also, about the stain in the back, you should be able to crawl far enough back there to take a good look at it and see if it's corrosion or not. Just be sure to put a stand of some kind under the tail skid.
Jay Shealy
N66088

Thanks for your input. If the owner wants to sell his plane badly enough, then his brother (an A&P) might sign off on the repair - but you make a good point that an IA has to sign off as well.

The airplane has unique features which I like: it is attractive, speedier than most 150's (considering the gap seals and that it is a strightback fuselage), and that it has a zinc-chromate treatment throughout the inside airframe structure that only the factory could apply. It has a KX175B NAVCOM and a mode C xponder. But, the paperwork has to be correct and straight or it is no go. As for emotions, yes a first airplane is emotional. If I tried to justify it on cost and practicality alone, I would not buy any airplane and neither would many other individuals.

At any rate, another airplane came up for sale which I will also look at. It is a 1976 Aerobat with less than 2000 TT and 250 since major. It is priced just $2500 more than this older 150. The catch: paint is faded and dull and the interior is worn (I'd rate both a 4-5, and they are original) so the plane will need a new paint job and re-done upholstry soon. I could accept this as long as this Aerobat is a solid, airworthy aircraft that has no damage history and is otherwise well cared for.

Steve

Steven, I can't believe nobody has mentioned a pre-buy inspection in this thread! If you're serious about an airplane, convince the owner to allow your inspector (whom you know and trust, right?) to do a pre-buy annual inspection. 200-300 bucks for a look-see? Money well spent if it saves you from buying junk! If he balks, he might know something he's not telling you.

For the money though, the Aerobat sounds better, even with bad paint. You can fly bad paint! You can't fly a bad airframe!

Carl

Your right about the pre-purchase and I have an A&P who is also an IA ready to do it for me. I have discussed this with the owner: he is OK with it, but wants to be present. The pre-purchse will be the equivalent to an annual. However, my inspector told me that he would pick up on the lack of 337's (even though the airframe is sound) and he would require the owner to resolve this issue.

Something I have done in the past is to offer to have your mechanic do an annual inspection on the airplane (a pre-buy is really about 2/3rds of an annual anyway but it doesn't count toward anything, but if you do an annual then you are set for the year.) Offer the seller his asking price with the stipulation that the cost of anything that comes up during the annual inspection will be paid for out of the owner?s proceeds from the sale. For example you offer the guy his asking price of say $25,000.00. And during the annual a $5,000.00 repair is needed. Then the owner pays the $5,000.00 out of the $25,000.00 you paid for the airplane.

You get a good airplane with a fresh annual and the owner gets his asking price with no dickering. Win-Win.

If the owner is confident in the condition of his aircraft he will have no problem with this arrangement, because he will get most if not all of his asking price. If however the aircraft has had questionable maintenance in the past then he will not agree and then you don't want his airplane anyway. (And you haven?t even shelled out the money for a pre-buy yet!)Works like a charm.

Tactic

Your suggestion of offering the full asking price with the stipulation that all issues affecting airworthiness (found by the annual I would pay for) are resolved by the seller at seller expense is a good one and I am thinking along those lines.

However, I have disscussed this airplane with my FAA manuafaturing inspector co-workers (also A&P's and IA's) and there is one thing that may wash the sale up. Again, the FAA (record center in Oklahoma City) has no FAA form 337's on file to cover the major repairs due to the hard landing and run-in with a fence 20 years ago, and also no 337 to cover the flap and aileron gap seals (a major alteration usually requiring a Supplemental Type Certificate). Assuming that the repairs and data were not done in accordance with FAA approved Cessna Type Design Data (or a Cessna maintenance and repair manual), the airplane is in violation of FAR 43.9 and Appendix B to FAR 43. I feel the seller is honest and willing to show all records. These issues did occur long before the current seller bought the airplane. But still, the seller would have to obtain 337's somehow to cover the major repair and major alteration. Otherwise, I will have to take a pass. Too bad, because I do like the airplane and it has many attractive features.

It's obvious Steve that you are very interested in following the rules to the finest degree, and I would be the last one to discourage you from that.

I have an observation here that (I hope) doesn't ignite too much controversy. It seems that the deeper you dig with this airplane, the more legal "out of compliance" issues you turn up. I would be the last one to discourage a careful prebuy, but it does occur to me that a pretty high percentage of the airplanes flying are somehow out of compliance in one way or another. Often these violations are technicalities that violate the letter of the law, but not the spirit. This particular airplane has obviously changed hands numerous times without any of these 337 issues coming to light. Why? Because nobody bothered to dig that deeply into the logs. Even if there was some suspicion along the way, it's likely that both buyers and sellers adopted a "don't ask, don't tell" philosophy. All along, the pilots enjoyed the airplane, and as far as we know, without any particular additional risk because the paperwork was technically in violation of the FAA letter of the law.

Here's an analogy: Everyone pretty much agrees that the automotive traffic laws are a good idea. Yet nearly all of us violate the rules of the road nearly every day. It's just too easy to drive a hair faster than the speed limit, and forget to turn on our turn signals etc. Can you imagine calling up law enforcement to say "By the way, I've been driving with my license plate light burned out. Please send me a citation"? In a sense, this is what we are asked to do as general aviation pilots, self comply with the rules, and turn ourselves in if we don't. Not surprisingly, we aren't anxious to report our transgressions voluntarily.

As pilots, we want above all else to be safe, but we aren't anxious to have the FAA shadow our every move. Nobody wants to be ramp checked. I'm not making any judgment in your particular case nor about this particular airplane. It's clear you are being careful not to buy an airplane that might later cause you trouble with the authorities, and I commend your caution.

I guess what I am trying to say is, if you dig deeply enough, you'll probably find something wrong with most of the airplanes currently flying. It's going to take a lot of patience to find one that has every i dotted and every t crossed. The first 150 was constructed more than 45 years ago, and the last 152 rolled off the line 19 years ago. It's going to be tough to find an airplane with a spotless paperwork history. I'll bet if we could conduct an anonymous survey of owners, we'd find that most 150-152's have some skeletons in their closet. The letter of the law is pretty difficult to comply with 100% when you're dealing with a vehicle that has changed hands for 19-45 years, with every owner putting on his mark in one way or another.

In my view, the FAR's should be rewritten to make it possible to "fix" noncompliance without undue expense. Maybe some kind of blanket amnesty that would offer owners the chance to file new paperwork for ancient violations.The way the FAR's are written, it's in the owner's interest to hide blemishes from the airplane's past, (especially if they don't affect safe operation) because there is no practical way to retroactively bring the airplane back into compliance.

Good points Royson. When I bought my 150/150, I was fortunate enough that the AP/IA from the prior owner brought all of the paper into compliance (the owner had VERY deep pockets and insisted on it). This was a wakeup call as some of the items were quite important, and on my purchase of my 177B, I was quite careful with the paperwork. Irregardless, it is noteworthy that I still found two STC's without paperwork (Yokes and Skybolt fasteners). One I can easily fix since the STC owner gave me permission to use their paper, the other....probably not, since the STC owner is a bit less cooperative. But...I made a conscious decision to proceed with the purchase.

Another point is that the plane had a prop strike. Logs clearly show engine teardown and inspection IAW Lycoming Bulletins, but there is a new prop log book, but no reference to the installation of the prop, whether it is new or rebuilt or what. My assumption is that with the new log it is either new or rebuilt to new specs, so the fact that I don't know, and that it has 500 plus hours of successful service, leads me to accept the risk.

If this particular plane has too many issues....walk away or the first time something goes wrong after you buy it, you will be quite bitter with your decision, but do cut yourself some slack on what is acceptable.

In the Cardinal world, there is so few of them that you have to decide early on to accept damage history or be prepared to pay a substantial premium...I made that decisions and the jury is still out since th first annual is in June, but I sure enjoy flying her.

Some very good points, He could buy the aircraft and never have a problem with it and enjoy it.

But what if he has a known problem (Missing 337s) and the paperwork isn't right Then god forbid, he has an incident or an accident. Will he not be giving his insurance company an out? Will they not pay on his clam because the aircraft was flown in violation of the FARs, and in violation of his policy? Leaving him for all intents and purposes uninsured? He will be up the creek so to speak, because you can be assured that those missing 337s will show up in the investigation. If he found them the FAA and the insurance company will find them.

I?m asking here not preaching.

Is there an Insurance man in the house?

Tactic