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Hello. I wanted to start (again?) a thread on "pre-buys".

I have found no standards for a "pre-buy" inspection, which is why I put it in quotes. It appears to be a made-up term, as I have never seen any definition in the FAR's or any manufacturer's publications. If there are any official references/definitions, I hope that a Forum member will let us know.

I know of several cases (myself included) that had a "pre-buy" performed, bought the plane, and were subsequently faced with high repair/compliance costs at the first annual. Mine cost me $14,000, and a guy I know had his plane grounded one month later at the Annual Inspection by the same shop that had performed the "pre-buy".

The only definitive inspection is an Annual Inspection, because the standards are clear. If considering the purchase of a plane, offer to split the cost of the Annual Inspection with the seller (not any required repair work, let him or her pay for that or have the price reduced by those costs). If you don't buy, 1/2 of the charge for an Annual Inspection wasn't much more than a "pre-buy" and the seller comes away with an Annualed aircraft. If you do buy, you now have 12 months of flying with the knowledge that the plane is airworthy.

I guess I am beating this horse for all the new guys buying their first plane, and all their buddies tell them to get a "pre-buy".

It might be illuminating if any Forum members bought a plane with a "pre-buy" and had issues that arose at the first Annual Inspection that were there when you bought the plane. If you are willing, please post that experience under this thread so that others may see how dicey a "pre-buy" can be.

Friends don't let friends fly "pre-buy" aircraft. Mike.

My problem with a pre-purchase inspection is the unrealistic expectations of the prospective owner.

Most times, they don't want to pay for an annual..."Just have a quick look and make sure nothing looks fishy", then when issues arise after the purchase, they want to hang the mechanic.

A prebuy is worth nothing other than feel good-itis unless it is a thorough, comprehensive inspection.

Anything less than a complete annual, performed by a mechanic who knows where the typical hidden problems are for a specific type of airplane is a waste of time and money. And...I'm not talking Cessna's in general...I mean a specifically experienced 150 or 152 mechanic familiar with either the Lycoming or the Continental engines...or better off...both.

A comprehensive (time-consuming) logbook and FAA records search is a must. Paying for an oil change, taking an oil analysis sample, and cutting open the filter should be high on the priority list.

After all this, you begin to have an idea of the condition of the airplane. But...it'll cost over a thousand dollars to get this done....and on an plane one may or may not ultimately purchase.

It is an historical fact that people can buy good planes without a prebuy, and people can buy veritable junk and great big money pits with a great prebuy.

So...I hate it when I'm asked to do a prebuy that does not fit the scope of an annual inspection. There are regulations and manufacturer's instructions for that...and it should be the universal "pre-buy" standard. Anything short of that leaves too much to chance.

I do like it, however, when a prospective buyer gives me a list of specific items to check. That way, I'm doing exactly what the buyer wants. To leave it up to me do walk between the lines of, "Well, I don't really want an annual, but I want to know what's wrong with it." "And, I don't want to spend more than 500 dollars."... Don't waste my time, and I won't waste your money. You want the plane, you buy it. If you want an annual, I'll do it. I don't have a crystal ball. I can't tell you what's gonna break in the next 5 years. It's a game of chance. No pre-buy, no matter how expensive, will change that.


And...my biggest issue...is when someone asks me if it's worth XX,XXX dollars. I don't have a clue. Too much, too cheap...I'm not an appraiser. I'm certificated by the FAA to be able to determine if an aircraft is airworthy or not. I don't give a rat's behind what it's worth. I'm not buying it.

Gary:

Very well spoken. I paid for two pre-buy inspections that turned up problems with logs, long periods of inactivity and lapsed annual inspections, and other "obvious" stuff. As a buyer of a 30+ year aircraft there is just to much that a mechanic can't see on the surface unless the buyer wants to spend big money (and they don't). My solution on the third and last pre-buy was simply "find any and all corrosion" which didn't happen either. I found some on a portion of the spar under the tank covers that is not visable unless you pull the covers. Not part of any pre-buy I've heard of.

Bottom line is that you simple can't find all the problems.

My solution was to buy a plane with a run out engine and replace it - I know what I have now. And to restore the entire plane.

You can get some good deals on planes that need engines.

Well said
It's the only way to get what you want.

Gary's absolutely right. I'd go one step further, If you are new to this as I am, there is no substitute for the experience of others, so use their experience to cull out the "dogs" and then split an early annual on the one your very sure to buy. If something serious crops up during the annual it's a lot easier to choke on a $500- $700 error than buy a $10,000 or worse problem.

Aviating is the management of risks and a pre buy is only a quick look to see if anything bad stands out.
It is not a guarantee that all is well. It just lessens the risk that might be there without one.

An Annual inspection is still no guarantee that a 20, 30 40 or 50 year old plane is 100%.
How many of us have something break shortly after an annual that
cost another few hundred dollars?

An annual inspection when you purchase just gives you 12 months
to save for any problems that didn't crop up during the year but
get found at the next annual.

Absolutely right on, Gary. I would want to make one addition. You need to know the person that is doing the Annual Inspection for you. And you, as the buyer, should be present as the inspection is in progress. Just to hire somebody in the area of the airplane that has been possibly recommended by somebody is not good enough. If you are going to purchase an airplane and cannot be there, or have your mechanic do it, then I really would not bother paying for an inspection at all.

I have purchased two airplanes personally sight unseen. Both have been basically good airplanes. I had complete logs sent to me. Pictures. And have had friends take a courtesy looksie. I consider myself some what savvy where aircraft are concerned, however. And I seem to posses a fairly reliable "gut feeling." I did budget $5,000 each for the unexpected. And both airplanes had their problems. Even after Mr. Ed was annualled by a Certified Cessna Repair Station. But, that was the chance that I took by not personally inspecting the aircraft myself. Fortunately, though, I have never used the entire budget I allotted for the "just in case" scenario of buying a sight unseen airplane.

And, as Gary points out, having somebody explicitly experienced with the 150 or 152 is definitely an added bonus. Case in point. I had two different I/A's inspect 72G on successive annuals. With me looking behind them. Yet, the third, (and present), I/A immediately found the cracks in the bulkhead / doubler where the leading edges of the tail feathers attach. There is no doubt that they were there all the time. It just took somebody that knew what to look for to recognize them. People ask me why I do not get my I/A and do my own inspections? Because even if I did have my I/A, I would still want that second set of eyes to inspect my airplane. No A/P, or I/A, is absolutely infallible. (though I am acquainted with a few that sure think they are!)

Just an additional personal note. Very little irritates me more then to listen to somebody complain about a purchased problem airplane that they did not have their own mechanic inspect. Nor were they there themselves during the inspection. And then have this buyer turn around and blame a mechanic in which they acquired sight unseen to do a cheapie prebuy inspection? If these buyers had done their homework properly, and had the aircraft inspected properly, with they themself present during the inspection. Then, there should have been few surprises.

Or, sometimes even with the best of intentions, "S" happens!

When I sold 72G to John, I paid for the annual inspection. It was my mechanic, but John was right there as we went through the airplane. All buyers should insist at a minimum on doing this.

I did a pre-buy once, with the current owner of the aircraft hovering around, looking pretty axious. When he said that I sure did take his plane apart, further than it had ever been, I had a pretty good idea at what I would find. And I did. And I reported it to my boss, the buyer.

To make it work properly for everyone, a third party annual would be best. A pre-buy is equivalent to kicking the tires on a used car lot. It won't tell you much, other than there is (isn't) air in the tires. By splitting the costs of the annual, both the buyer and seller would be protected. The buyer, by ensuring he is getting what he is paying for. And the seller, by weeding out those who are less than willing to make a commitment to the purchase. My opinion, for what it's worth.

That being said, I did have a guy look at my project before I bought it. More to make sure it was all there and wasn't a pile of rust! He said he'd buy it if i didn't! Nuff said for me!

Could not agree more. 3 seperate very qualified people have annualed my plane. Each one found something different. Gary found the most after I had busted my tail initially getting it up to what I thought was pretty good shape. Sharp eyes that fellow. The last annual after Gary found a little corrosion where the pivot bolts go through the wing and wanted to put that nasty stuff in there. Scotch brite and a little primer took care of it. Now it appears my starter is crapping out. So stuff happens. You would think a top notch A/I would be able to predict things like that happening.

You know, I can't say enough good about a pre-purchase inspection. I did two pre-buys before I bought POO. I asked that an annual inspection be done on each aircraft - but without the repairs. It cost me $850.00 on one C172, and $650.00 on another one. I walked away from each of those two airplanes. It was $1,500 well spent. Next time I buy, I'll do it again.