Club Homepage Forums Classified Ads Buy & Sell - Everything But Airplanes Prebuy raises questions

I met the prospective seller on Thanksgiving to take a look at the plane for the first time. I was near his general area visiting relatives so he flew over to meet me.
We had talked several times by phone, exchanged e-mails and faxes and came to an agreeable price if everything was as stated.
The plane flew good and I went back over the normal questions. I clearly remember his response that day as "no" when the subject of damage history came up. I was so clear about this because there just so happened to be a guy who supposedly had an A&P certification hanging around the airport that day. Something looked slightly quirky about the plane to him and he asked the seller about damage history. After the seller left he told me he still felt like the plane had some damage history. I didn't see anything major to unnerve me and figured I'd let someone more knowledgeable than myself take a look at it in detail and make that determination. I was generally confident enough that day to give him a deposit for $500. I wrote on the check "Subject to a satisfactory prebuy inspection".

After much planning, scheduling and rescheduling, we finally got four grown folks schedules (me, the seller, my guy doing the prebuy and my friend in the V tail S model Bonanza who was good enough to haul us around)together one Saturday about a week and a half later to get the prebuy done. Boy that Bonanza was sweet, but that is another story.
Let's cut to the chase. At the prebuy, after removing the inspection panels under the wing, with the aid of a flashlight and mirror, we noticed that some of the wing spars on each side were OD green rather than bare metal.
My guy says that all of them should have been bare metal and that indicates to him that some have apparently been replaced at some time or another. Is this assumption true?
He carefully examined the skin surrounding the suspected area and deemed the repair to have been well done. No ripples or irregularities.
Compressions were good (mid 70's) and other than a few minor oil leaks of an unknown source, everything else checked out OK. But, with only 3360 TTAF and 260 SMOH I kind of expected everything to be OK.
The guy doing my inspection was none to impressed with the Terra digital radio stack that the owner was so proud of. He made me aware that Terra is now defunct and that although everything is working fine now and the plane's IFR certification is current, I may have trouble getting someone to work on them if any problems pop up. The owner said a company in Texas had bought all the rights and patents to Terra and is servicing the later model digital Terra stuff like found in this plane.
When we finally got around to inspecting the logs, we found an disturbing entry from 1980. A single line entry that merely said "plane rebuilt". When I asked the seller about this he said he had never noticed it before. I'm green and new to the world of plane buying but, it seems to me to much emphasis has been placed upon a through examination of log books that this would have been overlooked by the seller.
My delima is this. My conscience tells me that if I was going to call off the whole deal or renegotiate the price, I should have done it that day or made the seller aware that there was a problem. Instead, all I could think of was getting my hands on the FAA CD to look at the 337's to determine just exactly what had been done and to determine if it was significant enough to raise an issue with it.
As soon as I got home I ordered the CD. It's been about 2.5 weeks now and it hasn't come back yet. The only reason I haven't been pushed to close the deal by now is due to 2 old liens filed with the FAA back in 1980. Once the loans were paid off, the terminations were never filed and they are creating clouds on the title that my bank wants cleared up before the loan is closed.
All in all, I think the plane is a good plane. The guy who did the inspection for me thinks it is a good plane. He also thinks that with a damage history now known and avionics that will be more worthless with each passing year due to a now defunct company, the agreed price of 25K is to much even with a low time IFR cert. plane. I just don't know.
If I should decide to back out, should I leave the $500 lying on the table since I didn't make issue with this several weeks ago at the prebuy or am I justified in asking for my money back since not everthing is as it was portrayed? Has to much time passed? What is fair?
If it was up to me, I would like to renegoiate the price lower and move forward. But, I bet he won't feel the same way and that's why I'm asking your opinion.

While you're waiting for the records CD to come in, you could try the FAA and NTSB websites and see if there are any records of a past mishap.

HELL NO!!! Get your money back if you dont want this plane!! Dont just roll over for him.
If you like it offer him $18-20k for it. No matter how you cut it, he mis-represented it since it has some sort of damage history.

The simple of it is that if you are not happy with the airplane, run.

Yes, I certainly would ask for my money back. The seller mis-represented the airplane to you, knowingly or un-knowingly and should have offered the money back without you asking when the "plane rebuilt" entry was discovered.

If the airplane is indeed nice, in good condition and has been flying all these years, the repairs have proven themselves, however, you need to see the FAA record on it. If the repairs were never recorded on a form 337 this could quickly turn to a can-o-worms, and even if you liked the airplane and decided to go ahead and buy it, its value is signifcantly lowered as a result of the unrecorded damage and when you go to sell, you will either have to attempt to hide your knowledge or it or lose money.

If you are set on the airplane and like it and are willing to take a chance on the radios, make an offer to the seller, a measureably lower price, one you think you could live with come your time to sell, probably in the $17K to $19K range.

Otherwise, retain your A&P for the next prebuy, ask for your $500 back and end the whole deal.

Charles

I advise folks to look at damage history with a carefully measured grain of salt.

Here is my thought process (a restatement of some of the responses already):

1) Would I kill the deal over damage history. NO...provided that it was properly documented on 337...next question.
2) Would I demand a lower negotiated price, YES. The planes value is diminished by damage history even when done correctly and is not overly apparent.

3)Would I live in fear of the repairs...Certainly not if done right. They are probably more sound than the rest of the aircraft.

I had the same situation arise when I bought my Cardinal. Owner wanted $65K said NO DAMAGE HISTORY in all my correspondance and discussions. Buy/Sell agreement and deposit stipulated acceptable pre-buy and review of logs to MY satisfaction. Internet research (searched NTSB by tail number) turned up a "Whoops" when they ran it in a ditch in 1977. Another "Whoops" showed up in the logs (engine sudden stoppage) in 1995. I reviewed the logs and there was a replacement of the left outer wing panels and ribs with the 1977 incident. Well documented by a shop still in business (who remembers the plane as it was based with the same owner before the recent guy for 20 plus years).

I made a low ball offer backing it up with NAAA Evaluator data, he countered, I walked....he chased after me. I now own the Cardinal. The plane wasn't perfect, and I still ended up putting some $$ into it, but do not feel I am into a loser yet. I am quite happy with the "Redbird" and I don't give a second thought to the wing repair.


Oh...and if you do walk and he doesn't want to refund the deposit (his problem not making proper disclosure, not yours), visit with him when you have the Small Claims Court notice of appearance served to see if he has a change in heart.

So, the prebuy doesn't scare us, many of these planes have damage history. But the radio stack is unsupportable (check this). And the price is too high.

As someone else said, make him an offer of sig. less than asking price, and back it up with the avionics and damage history. See if he takes it (mine did).

Also, have you had a disinterested party look over the plane? I am constantly amazed at all the hangar rash and paint scrapes I never saw when I had my rose-colored glasses on while I wrote the deposit check.

You *WILL* spend money fixing things, making it your plane, the first year. Factor some of that in, as well as the unknowns. My first year my partner & I dropped 6K into the plane fixing things, adding things, etc. Be prepared...and best of luck!

Rusty,

Go to the "Hangar" section of the "Members" area (on the left side of the screen). Use the plane's tail-number and do a "Search Document for your airplane". See if there were any NTSB or FAA accident reports for that plane.

Bob & Hung

Forgot to mention that did that first before I ever saw the plane. Records reflect an incident in 1980 when a student pilot ran out of gas. It did not say that any damage or injuries occured.

Rusty,

All prebuys raise additional questions. That's why we do them! The airplanes value is determined by how easily and accurately these questions are answered. Unfortunately, Your question cannot be easily answered, because of incomplete aircraft records, and this significantly lowers the aircrafts market value.

To answer your question, you must realize that none of the internal structure on 150's/152's was primered with Zinc Chromate (green paint) at the factory. The green primered components you found in the internal wing structures are proof positive that at least one wing skin was removed for access to these components. "Plane rebuilt" is insufficient in the extreme to answer any questions about this work, may indicate other repairs were made to other areas, and may even be intentionally deceptive. It is common practice for technicians to primer replacement sheet metal components, or modifications, before installation. It is arguable that these components may have been replaced due to corrosion, but it is more likely there was improperly documented damage history. In this case, it is unlikely that just the spars were replaced or repaired. A detailed inspection should reveal other replaced components, probably also primered, such as leading edge skins, ribs, rib caps, stringers, strut attach points, etc.

Are you sure you meant spars? Did you mean ribs? The only time I ever saw just the spars replaced on a 152 was following an extremely hard landing that actually flexed the wings enough to bend the spars at the strut attachment points. There were damaged rivets at the upper skin overlap areas, but the rivets were replaced and the skin was re-useable. There was also a detailed inspection of the gear mounting, which required partial dissassembly and repair of that structure. Did 'your' student pilot land hard? Did he take out a couple of small trees? Who knows?

All that said, this may still be a good solid airplane now, but the logs have to be considered incomplete at this point, and that diminishes the worth of the aircraft as far as resale goes. I'd get my $500 back and walk away. There are too many good airplanes (with good records) at this price. If he wants to knock a bunch off the price (at least as much as you stand to loose at resale time) You can still enjoy this plane as much as any other, at lower initial cost. You will have to plan on replacing the radios at some point in the future!

If you proceed, I would make the sale contingent on your mechanic completing an annual inspection, with emphasis on determining the extent and quality of previous repairs. You are just paying for the inspection phase. The owner pays for additional repairs that affect airworthiness. If he declines, he pays for the inspection and you walk away! You both agree to this in writing beforehand. You can negotiate minor discrepancies that you want repaired. Your technician's evaluation of the previous repairs should be fully documented in the aircraft logs, and 337's filed documenting any major repairs missing from the FAA records you ordered. Your tech may not be willing to do this, if he feels he cannot verify the completeness, quality, or airworthiness of the repairs. He may require partial disassembly as necessary for access, or even redoing the repair himself. You should talk to your tech about this now, before pursuing the purchase further. If your tech can't or won't sign off on the next annual, making the logbooks right in the process, or it becomes cost prohibitive, the whole deal is dead!

Carl

It appears that you should be entitled to the $500 if you want it. You already have costs involved with the guy you hired to do the prebuy?