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Sorry if this has been brought up here before, I used the search function but did not find anything on it.

Do any of you have real world experience with the Piper Tomahawk? Yes, I have read all about the stalls and things about them, and the limited life time wings. But I have talked to several people who actually have a lot of time in them and they say the Tomahawk is a great plane, more room than a C150 and maybe better performance. I have never been in one let alone fly one. I'm not looking to start a war, just trying to learn. I may consider one of these too, if a nice one came along.

I know the response might be a little bias in this group, and I would expect that when asking this type of question on a Cessna site. I just thought a few of you might have 1st hand experiences to share.

Thanks,
Dale - Arizona

Hi Dale,
I have about 40 or so Hrs in Tommahawks. Got my license in them
after returning to flying lessons after 14 years. I started
flying in the early 80's in 150's. Finnished up in the mid 90's
in Tomahawk's. The stall spin thing is, in my opinion, a bunch of
huey I have stalled 150's that scared the sh*@ out of me
but as long as you keep the ball centered there is no supprises.
Yes they have more room, the controls seem heavier and they
take turbulance better.
I too looked at buying one when I was looking but the thing
that scared me the most was the life limit on the wings.

If you have the chance go fly in one and make your own decision and don't believe everythin you read.

Just my $.02

Dale,

G'day,

Yep, I used to own a "Hatched" and to be honest it was a great little aircraft (and still is- a friend of mine bought it from me earlier this year).

Yes they do have more room, and I think you'll find they even lift slightly more wieght, not a whole lot more but still more. To give you an example I have loaded up the Axe with two heavy people (about 230KG between us) and full fuel on top of that, and the aircraft had no problem with it, lets just say I probably would not do the same with my 150, I am a little more weight concious.

They are more roomy, and there is more room on the instrument panel for all the gagets etc. they are easy to fly and land, and the vis is great without the wing on top, although having said that, on a hot day is nice to have a wing to stand / sit under, and down here where there are lots of farms with fences, a high wing can get through the farm gates between poddocks a lot easier.

Now my dislike, and there is only really one or two I guess, and that is, I tend to find with the "T" tail, the aircraft seem to fishtail in the sky a bit, more noticable on rough days, where the 150 fly's straight and feels a bit more solid on the Elevator / Rudder controls. The other is the trim set up, which is basically a spring system instead of a direct drive control cable as such like the 150, if you go for a fly (have a look down the inside tail of one) and you'll see what I mean.

Now after all that, yes, I have owned one, and if another one came up at a reasonable price, yes, I would probably own another, they are probably less maintenance intensive than a 150/152, but then its not like 150/152 are overly maintenance intensive anyway......On the subject of parts, you've probably got a better chance of getting second hand parts for a 150 than a Tomahawk, simply because there was only around 2500 Axe's made where as 150/152's, well there's heaps, around 30,000 of them. Piper still supports the Tomahawk so it can't be all bad.

Look, this is just my thoughts on the aircraft, ask a few others, go take one for a fly and see what you think, I tend think they are an under rated aircraft, and some just like to pick on them for the hell of it.

There are a couple of Tomahawk Forums if you search through google.

Good luck with your decission, you probably won't be dissapointed either way.....

Cheers

Traumahawk positives...
You can pick up a pretty new(er) 1980's plane for the price of a 1960's C-150 with about the same amount of airframe hours.
The traumahawk has a Lycoming engine (this is a plus to me since I favor Lycoming over Continental)
A little bit more cabin width for todays more modern, wider butts
Easier to fuel.

Traumahawk cons...
NO resale, if you bought one you would likely get out of it what you paid for it...but dont expect it to appreciate like a C-150 probably would.
Throw away wings.
They are ugly.

Other than the fact that a 150's and 152's are a little cramped for the big butted and long legged...it's hard to find any REAL faults with them. Unless you find an absolute killer dear on a Traumahawk, get a 150 or a 152, they will be a LOT easier to sell down the road if you ever want to get rid of it.

It's funny how a Beech Skipper, which is practically a mirror image of a Traumahawk, will fetch 10k or more on the market than an identically equipped/hours/ect Piper.

Aviation Safety just had an article about that very subject. Conclusion? The Tomahawk was less prone to spin and recovered faster than a 150/152....

Buy the VG's or ask Bill. Are VG's available for the Tomahawk?

Bengie

You need to learn everything about a PA-38 that you can before you begin shopping. There are lots of mods, mandatory inspections, etc. on them. Depending on the mods, you may or may not have to do expensive recurring inspections.

They are good airplanes, just require a very good knowledge of the variations in options and year models and service bulletins on them.

There is one FBO that has taken the PA-38 under its wing and has devoloped a life extension kit for the wings. As manufactured, the wings are limited to 11,000 hours, then they are scrap. The life extension takes them out ot something like 17,000 hrs. The plus of course is that they strengthen the wings. This same outfit has other mods also, and are very familiar with the PA-38.

If you find one that a wing or both have been replaced, you absolute must have good records of the total time on the replacement wings at installation and time on the airplane since then. If you do not see good records on the hours on the wings, no matter what you THINK they might have on them, they are SCRAP if you cannot absolutely verify the total time on the wings.

Stabilizer trim spring is also life limited, need good records on this and make sure if you buy that the spring has good times remaining on it.

Problem areas were the bulkhead where the tail attached, inspect or replace with heavy duty, the landing gear attach bolts, install improved bolts and inspect regular to prevent problems, the engine mount cracked, Kasola Associates in Albany GA has a STC beef up mod for the mounts. Originally they were built with 5.00x5 wheels and later 6.00x6 or 15x6.00x6 wheels were optional on the mains, this is when the landing gear attach bolt problems surfaced.

My opinion is that this is a good airplane for VG's (no one has bothered to STC them yet however). This is an excellent airplane for an individual to own who understands airplanes with idiosyncrasies. Kinda like owning a 1950's Trimuph or MG. Top door latch was easily damaged, always caused trouble with renters, an individual would quickly learn how to operate it and never have a problem, stuff like this.

Charles

I would just like to clarify a few things here from Bryan's post on the Con's....

As far as resale goes, it really depends on how you look after it. Yes there is probably more market for a 150/152 and I can't really comment on what happens in the US, but over here a Tomahawk price falls between a 150 and 152 (around 40K Aus - 30K US approx) and generally there are more 150/152 for sale then Axe's - as stated before, an underated aircraft in general....

Throw Away wings, now Charles might be able to assist here, my understand is there is a Mod, that if done by a certain time, does away with the throw away problem, or at least extends the life a few more thousand hours. In that regard, If you get a low time Axe (like mine was, only 4000 Hrs) at 100hrs a year, you'll need to own the aircraft for around 50 years before its really a problem - lets not forget that small but extremly relivant fact. Even if it has 7000Hrs on it, with average private flying your still looking at 20 years, and that only if you don't do the Mod prior to that time. Do some research on the wing AD, I think you find its all doom and gloom as some would have you believe.

Now as far as Ugly, I don't think so in fact it does have some really nice lines, at worst I would say it has charactor................. , I actually think they look quite good with the right paint scheme,and not necessarly Piper standard either. Have a look at www.Airliners.net [airliners.net] I've also seen one in the UK with the Spitfire/Hurricane colours, and I have to say it wasn't bad either. Mine only had the standard paint scheme and prior to selling it, i was going to get a respray in a more custom style. When I get home tonight I'll see if I can find a photo and post it here. I don't think there ugly, I can say I've seen ugly 150/152, and there again its all in the colour scheme I think.

Whilst you doing you google searches, there is one Tomahawk with an engine conversion, similar to the 150/150 one , and there is also a Tomahawk that has had the tail section converted so its a conventional tail like a Warrior - interesting ,

Here's one
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/piperpa38tomahawkclub/

And here is a link to my old Tomahawk, now owned by my friend, Bret Cavanagh - he also has other links from his site regarding PA-38 etc you'll find as you go looking

http://www.cavanagh.id.au/kaj1.html

Summing it up, there are more positives and negatives, look at it with an open mind, as I said before a very underrated aircraft.......

Cheers

You hit on some very good points, especially the throw away wings and the hours. I see your point crystal clear, but a potential buy probably will not. Hence why I think the "eventual" disposable wings would be a determining factor for resale.
I think a 1980 T-hawk will out perform a 1980 C-152, but the 152 will demand a premium price and will be a ton easier to sell down the road. Not to mention the 152 will more than likely appreciate in value.

I'm Piper proud, but I still cant warm up to the looks of the T-hawk....it's like the "red headed step child" of the Piper family!

I've got some time in PA-38s and I don't like them. I particularly don't like the T tail. When I was doing Wings weekends when a PA-38 showed up I passed. I was seriously spooked by the articles in Aviation Safety about 5 or 10 years ago having to do with spin accidents and discussing the differences between the certification articles and the production airplanes. I also read the more recent article in Aviation Safety which I did not find too satisfying.

George