Club Homepage Forums Classified Ads Buy & Sell - Everything But Airplanes I need an attitude adjustment.

First let me express my thanks to those that I met and talked to at Clinton. All of you had nothing but encouragement and excellent advice. I realize everyone was extra busy this year, and it ment alot to me and my wife that people stopped what they were doing and gave us their time. It was a " LONG HAUL " (Gary wasn't kidding) but a great introduction to 150/152's and the club...


Now for those that don't know me, I'll provide a little refresher about myself, before I go into my RANT.

I don't own a plane, I don't own a hanger, I don't have a PPL. I have a tattoo that says " sucker " on my forehead.


Plane

Finding the "first" plane is WAY more difficult than ANYTHING I've ever experienced in my short 38 years!
Things I've noticed.

1. People seem to be annoyed at my questions , and for the most part don't answer them. I'm four for four hear people, so either I'm annoying or I'm just unlucky.

2. Only one plane out of four has had complete log books. Water damage seems to be the number one culprit.

3. I've spent on average $200 on each plane I focused in on, to be rewarded with NOTHING. Title searches, FAA docs and fuel add up! Note however that one plane did come back with a lean from American Airlines Credit Union, so title searches aren't completely useless after all.

4. N-numbers change and so with them NTSB records. I seem to have more luck with the S/N as they don't seem to change. Its just a pain in the ass to track the S/N numbers. ( Hint, the Title company will "confirm" the S/N for you. )

5. (Warning, obviously total speculation) Missing log books seem to mean lower " TT " airframe times than what is real. I'm putting this together, because one of the planes was KNOWN to be a high time training plane in a city close by. This plane now has only 3600 hours on it. He looked me right in the eye, and said " she's low time ".

6. I feel dirty because I play people off each other about particular aircraft. You'd be surprised at what people say about planes and their respective owners. But then again you can develop a mental picture of the aircraft and cross reference it with the logs. I basically passed on two planes because I got different stores about their "damage" history.

7. Focusing on local aircraft isn't realistic, I need to expand the search, but I'm fearful of loosing my ability to "interrogate " the witnesses, ie #6 above.

8. I've only talked to one insurance company, so this is a little weak. But they weren't really interested in insuring me, because of the my low time AND they valued a 150's hull at no more than 20K. This could be a problem, because most 150's are slightly more that 20K.

9. And my number one observation! While I'm dicking around with Physical inspections, FAA docs, Title searches, PreBuys and Ass print verifications, people swoop in and buy planes from 2+ states away WITHOUT prebuys, and/or for that matter ever seeing the plane.


Hanger

1. Getting a hanger is a pain in the ass. Its all politics and who you know. It doesn't help that the city owns everything and THEY DON'T LIKE THE AIRPORT.


PPL

1. Independent CFI's are not very reliable. They are however inexpensive.

2. Professional training centers on the other hand are VERY expensive but reliable. I stopped by one yesterday (USflightAcademy) and was quoted something like 11K for my license...they were serious.




Going forward on the plane..

1. I'm going to take Bill's suggestion (Grants_Pass_Bill) and create a "wanted" add on Barnstormers.

2. If sellers don't answer my questions, I won't go any further.

3. Continue with the steps laid out my the club members, ie, FAA docs, Title search, prebuy...if someone swoops in... tough crap.



Going forward with my PPL...

1. Right now I have no idea.. I'm open for suggestions.





-corey
"Bitter, table for one!, Bitter!"

It's a little late in the evening, so I'll address the points of your posts in general. I'll probably write more tomorrow.

I can feel and understand your frustration, but take your time, be patience and the right one will come. Let the people with deep pockets swoop in if they want. If you rush it and buy without a thorough prebuy/inspection, the next thing we'll hear from you is that your new-to-you airplane is a money pit. You certainly wouldn't want that.

As for hangars, yes, they're in short supply everywhere. Often, you have to be on a waiting list for a long time, unless you have money to buy/build your own, or luck out with an opening. If you manage to get a plane, it's not the end of the world to tie it down outside. A good cover will prevent quite a bit of interior damage. My plane spent over 20 years tied down outside and it didn't hurt the exterior much.

You don't HAVE to buy an airplane in order to proceed with getting your PPL. Most of us got our license and rented for quite a few years before buying a plane. Sure, it'd be nice to train in your own airplane and not "wasting" money on rents. But there's a plus side to renting: you don't have to worry about maintenance & repairs, and fixed costs (hangar, taxes, insurance, loan payments). At the end of the flight, toss the key to the FBO and drive home carefree. Not all that bad.

Hey Corey, I know where a VERY fine example of a 152 is at. I know the guy personaly, he has owned the plane since the early 80's. I know the airframe total time is less that 3k, I'm guessing in the neighborhood of 2800 hours. Anyone here will tell you that is VERY low for a 152. Around 500 hours on a Zepher rebuild. Just an all around VERY nice airplane. Why is he selling you ask? He lost his medical a couple of years ago. That is a very common "excuse" when someone wants to dump a plane, but it's true. Lord knows my wife has typed many letters for him to send to the FAA in OKC.
Aircraft is hangared in Van Wert Ohio.
He's asking $30,000 for it, I dont believe thats a bad price considering that it's only had a few owners and also for the fact it hasn't been beaten to death and a rental.

I'll see if my wife can get a few pictures of it if your interested.

-Bryan

Wow, Corey. That's quite the vent there. Sad part is, all of your efforts are quite prudent. I'm surprised at the one in four aircraft don't have complete logs... That's a deal killer for me. Period. Good for you, too.

As far as your questions, you're not off base there, either.

There are many types of buyers...from the ultra-cautious, conservative end who go to great lengths to ensure they're getting the good plane for the right price...all the way to those like this fellow I know who just happens to live in Grants Pass, Oregon who just posted an ad on Barnstormers that read, "I want a good plane, STOL, no bull, good useful load, no bull, I ain't gonna kick your tires if you're for real, no bull...oh..and I'll buy it sight unseen!"

Stick to your guns, Corey. To spend the kind of money you're talking about, plus having to pay for the requisite repairs that are inevitable on the first few months of ownership, you don't need to be jerked around. If you're not comfortable...wait until you are.

None of your requirements are unreasonable. That gut feeling serves you well. What's comfortable for one may not be comfortable for another. So, keep after it. One will pop up, sooner or later.

As for the hangar situation, if you're having difficulty acquiring a hangar, a covered tie-down is the next best, followed by tying down outside on the ramp with a nice canopy cover that goes out to cover the fuel caps, too.

On the instructor issue, if you're learning out of Ardmore, OK, I know absolutely nothing about that area.

For the insurance, have you made a call in to AOPA? If not, you might call Aircraft Insurance Agency in Lancaster, Texas. I've always had good luck through them. You might also PM Konrad Kelley, he's got more hours, but no PPL. He insures his 152...

Vent here all you want. That's what we're here for. An, that sucker tattoo...I don't believe it. A sign on your ass that says kick me...maybe. But the sucker tattoo...not!

Heck. Ardmore is only an hour's flight from me. I'll have to get up there and see you some day. I haven't seen Jeff Coggins, yet. Perhaps I'll have better luck with Ardmore versus Rockwall. Oh, and are you at the downtown airport or out on the northeast end of town...ADM?

There was a 25 year old kid that stopped in Van Wert today to get gas. He had just bought a 1956 Tri Pacer sight unseen from up in the Detriot area. Heres the kicker...it is his 11th (thats right, eleven!) aiplane he has owned. He just buys them, cleans them up, interrior refurb, ect and sends them down the road. At this pace he's gonna put Baron Thomas to shame!

I am interested Bryan. Thank you!

WILCO, now just remind me to tell her to take the camera to work in the morning!

PLANE

1. if they give you attitude, screw 'em. You don't want to deal with a real peckerhead concerning something like an airplane, and large amounts of money.

2. Missing logs aren't a turn off for me. It really depends on how long ago they were lost and the type of documentation since the logs were lost. Could be an excellent airplane for a great price. Could also be a money pit. Not an automatic no-no for me.

3. Be prepared to spend money to save money.

4. It's a pain. NTSB records don't disqualify an airplane for me. Makes for a cool conversation piece. In all honesty, damage history or a crash aren't an automatic no-no. If they are repaired properly they are as good as new... sometimes better. A good rule of thumb is WHEN it was damaged. If it's got 500+ hours on it, I'm sure it's a good plane.

5. Pretty much. But then TT on a 150 or 152 is meaningless. I've seen trashed out 150s with 3,000 hours, and I've seen excellent airplanes at 14k+.

6. Get as much info as you can on the seller and aircraft. My tip is to ask airport personnel (AKA, LINE GUYS!) about the plane and pilot. I was a line guy for a couple years. Yep. We know A LOT about who the pilot is and what type of plane it is. Also you can ask folks in the club to check up on the plane, and we can also give you an evaluation of the owner.

7. When the 150 I was lined up to purchase at my home airport (from the FBO I worked for) got destroyed, I decided I wanted an adventure anyway. No closer than TN (I lived in FL at the time)... found on in OH. Fun trip.

8. Don't worry about it. When you get the plane and fly the wings off of it, your insurance will go down steadily.

9. Guilty. Sort of. I called the guy up who I bought 40J from the day the other plane got trashed and asked him some questions about her. Sounded good, so I asked if he has any buyers lined. Nope. Sent him $1000 to hold on to it for me. Came up there and bought it, without a prebuy. Probably a dumb idea, but it didn't bite me too bad.

HANGAR

1. Yep. I'm lucky at my airport, they just put in a ton of hangars, they covered the entire waiting list PLUS 12 hangars. Too bad all the old rotten (inexpensive) hangars are still taken. Drat. One year of waiting. A hangar is very nice, but not necessarily a must. Put that money into flying until your name is up on the list. The money you save on your insurance will help (but not cover) your hangar rent.

PPL

1. Yep.

2. Yep.

I'd go with a medium - sized FBO. $4200 later I was a private pilot. That included all the equipment, tests, books, etc.

GOING FORWARD ON THE PLANE

1. GOOD

2. GOOD

3. GOOD

GOING FORWARD ON THE PPL

1. Me neither.

Actually, find yourself a decent, medium-sized FBO, rent their 150, 152, Tomahawk, Grumman, Skipper, or whatever until you find your plane. It'll be over before you know it.

Hope this helps.

Sorry to hear your woes Corey. If it's any help, here's how my story went and what I might have changed about it.

I started my PPL at a local part 141 school with no intention of buying a plane and was not a member of the club. By the time I had accumulated about 30 hours or so of renting and knowing that I would be doing cross coutry flying and overnighting that would not make renting feasable, I started my completely amateur plane hunt.

You, on the other hand, with this club as a resource are already miles ahead of me at the time.

After a few disappointments of planes being bought up under my nose while attempting to do my prebuy research, I came across my current plane on barnstormers and truthfully ended up getting pretty lucky. The first two buyers backed out for financial reasons and my month and a half of waiting paid off.

I went through AOPA for both financing and insurance. The insurance they provided me was very reasonable, about half what I pay for my car, without having a PPL yet. The only advantage to the AOPA financing on the other hand is the paperwork will be done right because they deal with airplanes all the time. You may have mixed results with your average banks. They will have a complete title and modification search done as well and will take care of all the FAA documents, as would any good airplane financing business.

The plane was instrument capable and the buyer delivered it about 380 miles in IMC, another testament to his confidence in the plane and my purchase contract had the stipulation that if my local A/P found any airworthiness or non-functional equipment that was unadvertised, he would take the plane back. This is where my most regretted mistake came into play: I trusted a mechanic that I had no knowledge of to do the inspection. I have since had a number of reasons to lose faith in this mechanic and am somewhat anxious about my first upcoming annual under my ownership.

You already have a huge leg up on me in the references you can get from this club on good prebuy A/Ps.

I flew the plane once then parked it until I finished my PPL. At that point I was already so in tune with the trainer 152s I had all my hours in and this one felt quite a bit different. Once I had my license in hand, I began to familiarize myself with my plane, it's more complicated avionics, and the big scary world (so it seemed at the time) of ownership and maintenance. I admit that having my own plane when I started my PPL would possibly have been a bit of an overload for me keeping track of both my plane's health and legalities as well as trying to learn my daily flight lesson. But again, with this club as a resource, that becomes much easier (and the number of good AOPA resources out there).

As for hangars, I had no intention whatsoever in keeping my plane in one, so I bought a nice cover, tiedowns, etc... Once I was on the field a few weeks a very unexpected deal came along and I couldn't pass on the offer. But there is no guarantee on how long my hangar will be available to me at the current price. The airport also wanted to leaseback my plane for training and some IFR work, but I decided not to for the time being and keep my baby to myself.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck! Oh and if you do take that very nice sounding deal of Bryan's... he's a commercial pilot now too!!!

Corey,

I can't add much to what's already been said.

So, stay the course and always tread lightly regarding the purchase of any plane....you're proceeding the correct way.

The airplane Bryan tossed out here looks like a good prospect but follow your check list one by one and if it passes the muster buy it knowing you've done it the right way.

When Bryan starts sending out the photo's and more detailed info regarding this plane and you like what you see and hear and you want to move forward, there's nothing wrong with sending the owner a deposit and telling him to consider it sold based on the plane passing the do-diligence. If it doesn't pass, you get your deposit back.

If this turns out to be the plane even though it's in a land far, far away, we'll get the plane to Ardmore......we have our ways.


Jim