I'm going to be a real pest with questions.

Have any Canadians imported a C150 into Canada or has anyone sold a plane into Canada? If so, can you tell me what the issues are to watch for?

The 150/150 with long range tanks and the 1760 MOTW sure fits my mission, but from the discussion about MTOW and STC issues, I was wondering if these might be harder to import.

Hi Murray
I imported last fall (october 2007) a 150/150 (Avcon conversion 1600 MGTOW). Formerly N6667G now C-FRED. Easy to do. I can provide you the MDM adress and phone number (minister delegate) who can sign your importation document for a flat rate (every MDM I talked charged about 1K$). You need a 100 hour and an annual inspection. You will have to pay taxes on the purchase prices. Don't forget the following fee:

-Title search (I've used Aerospace report of Oklahoma city 60$) run away from aircraft with liens, the aircraft can not be exported out of USA until liens are removed.
- Ferry flight. I hired a local pilot in Long Island NY where the plane was based. You might have to pay for the ferry, the gas, charts, night at the hotel and the return flight or train ticket.
-Certificate of registration fee (110$ flat rate)
-Rudder stop kit AD (only in Canada) about 250$ for parts and labour.

four (4) very important thing to know:
1)Field overhaul is not accepted by Transport Canada and can be refused during importation inspection. The last engine overhaul must be very well detailed, and be done to new limit. Search for big shop name overhaul, ask to see the engine logs.
2)Stay away from highly modified (337 form) airplane. 337 form does not exist in canada and must be replaced by "limited STC" wich is very expensive to get. All modification must be done under STC to be accepted by tranport Canada.
3) As soon as the money changes hand, the plane has a new legal owner. Figure this out before buying it. It is very expensive to get an export C of A from a mechanic (lots of paperwork), and usually the minister delegate for the importation will request an annual inspection, even if the export C of A has been signed two days ago ! You can't fly a N Number airplane with a canadian private pilot licence, unless registered to your name with a US adress. The easiest way to solve this problem is to ask the seller to "fly" the airplane in Canada for a "pre-purchase inspection" and abandon the airplane in Canada, couples of hours before you buy it (wink ! wink!) and fill the FAA bill of sale, you will still have to pay the taxes and the remaining of above fee.
4) US logs are totally different than Canadian logs. We have Journey log (light blue), Prop log (red), Engine log (yellow), and airframe log (blue). Altough US logs differ from canadian work details inscription must be toroughly detailed and complete. Try to look at the logs and see if complete from day one, very easier to get the airwothiness certificate with complete logs, otherwise the mechanics and the MDM tend to get nervous will spend a lot of time (and charges you big buck) to cover their hass, by doing every AD's - all.

Importation process is straightforward and I will be very happy to help you, if you want, but suggest you do a torough search here before you go south to get one.

Fred

I forgot:
There is also two club member, Rob Detacolli and Lionel who recently imported their C150 from US (before I did it) and hopefully will share their experience with us.

Fred

I second Fred's explanation.

Spend extra money to get an aircraft that is in very good mechanical shape, with few field approved installed mods. Radios are typically considered not a major mod here in Canada, so they should be accepted without too much problem. Otherwise, any mods should be STC'ed. I wouldn't bother with an export C of A, as the aircraft will have to be inspected during the import process anyway. This is where a "nice" aircraft will be worth it in the long run.

You should watch out for Canadian AD's. There is one on heavy duty nose gear that does not apply to US registered aircraft. There are also specific Canadian AD's for Cessna seat rails and heat muff inspections, among others.

Here [tc.gc.ca] is TC MSI 26 that covers importing aircraft. It is the document that the minister delegate would use during an import.

Here [tc.gc.ca] is the link to Canadian AD's. Use the advanced search function.

Good Luck

I agree with all that has been said so far. I purchased mine out of Texas, had the pre-purchase inspection done in Texas, had the previous owner send me all the logs that I then forwarded to a Minister delegate, he looked them over and indicated that it shouldn't be a problem to get it Registered here in Canada. In my case, the owner did want to get an export permit done, which turned out well for me because it turned out that there was an issue with the prop. He took care of that, we then de-registered the US N number, applied a Temp flight permit with a temp Canadian Registration to his 150. I then flew down to Texas and I flew it back here into Canada.

The biggest thing, make sure the engine wasn't a field overhaul. Canada doesn't accept that. In saying that, if you were to find a good deal on a 150/152 that had close to a run out engine,, You could get it overhauled here in Canada, "or in the US at an approved engine shop" and you'd be fine as well. Remember, when you hit the border, be prepared to open up your wallet and pay the applicable taxes. Mine had several stc's which didn't cause any problems during the import inspection.

The next 2 items aren't biggies, but they are quite important during the import inspection. Making sure all the applicable decals are attached, "go figure", and the 3 rd big item is to ensure there is good documentation leading to the current weight and balance. In retrospect for me,, rather then have a mechanic and a ministers delegate review your logs to ensure the W&B,, save yourself a few $$ and just get a current weight and balance done. It's not a difficult or expensive process to do a W&B.

I would NEVER suggest,, to buy a run out airplane,, get the "bill of sale in hand", head off to the nearest US overhaul shop,, get the engine overhauled, and add a few tidbits,, Then fly it across the border and hand over my bill of sale for the GST tax,, nope, I wouldn't suggest such a thing.

I should add, customs is an easy process. Call in advance, let them know that you are importing, land at the designated airport for customs,, have your credit card handy because they'll want the bill of sale to apply the appropriate taxes. In my case it took us a week to get from Texas to Vancouver,,"took a detour to L.A." and then up the West Coast into Vancouver. The reason for the detour,, other then just the tourist thing,, If you're in the US for 7 days,, and if there's 2 of you,, that portion that you're "allowed" to bring in, comes off the GST you have to pay. Hey, it paid for my expenses and fun on the side,, what can I say,,:)

Hi folks,

Thank-you for the comprehensive posts. You've certainly clarified this process for me. I feel confident about moving forward.

Now I need to get to work and crunch some numbers and then see if I can find that "perfect" plane. Like I mentioned before, I was looking for a C150 as that is all I knew about, then after joining the club, I've learned about the 150/150, and other conversions, STC's that sure do look tempting.

Again thanks.


I've emailed a couple of people in Canada about ads they have, and will probably contact two more. ONce I have these posts digested, I'll look state-side.

Cheers

Hi Murray,

Fred made an EXCELLENT post...Lionel and John did a great job adding to it. Two comments from me:

• I was a victim of a lien that took me almost 6 months to fix. I did the lien search and discovered a lien from 1967...and I got a lien release letter from the holders of the lien called M&T Bank and submitted that to the FAA. It took me 4 months just to figure WHY the FAA did not accept the letter (I had to wait an hour each day on the phone just to leave a message, and then they would not return my call). The issue was that the bank that granted the original lien had changed their name 7 times...and it eventually became M&T. I had to employ and escrow company to sort through the FAA's own records and PROVE each and every name change before they would accept the original lien release letter I'd given them.
• I did the pre-purchase inspection in Canada. The seller and I arranged that if the results of the inspection were good...he'd just leave the plane in Canada...and I'd drive him back home. If the results of the inspection were not favourable, then he could just fly his plane back home...and I would cover his expenses. That part worked out well, and I felt it gave me a good negotiating position as the plane was "in my house" so to speak.

Thanks Rob,

Two good points to remember. The lien thing seems to be a mine-field and quite a bit of extra expense.


It seems like a lot of hassle, but the asking prices of most I've seen in Canada are quite high.

Was the extra work in importing worth it?

Murray, It was worth in my case. I was looking for a certain 150, with the condition and avionics package, that I just couldn't find here in Canada.

What you've got to do is,, find one that you think you might like in the US,, add 22% for exchange, plus add 5% for GST, and then add in another $5000 to $8000 for the import inspection/registration.

So, a $20000 US 150 by the time you're done will cost you between $31000 to $33000 by the time you are done.

This does not include the misc taxes you might have to pay in your province, plus the misc cost for a registration mark and other costs like transportation/fuel ect. Beleive me there are,, and then insurance on top.

Yeah, the exchange has certainly gone up in the last six weeks and here in N.B. we're blessed with the HST, which harmonizes 8% in with the GST. 13 is definitely an unlucky number!

I've started to look hard in Canada, but... there is so much to choose from south of the 49th.

Reading about the 150/150 with long range tanks sure got me drooling; expecially if it was IFR equipped, but as you point out the cost of importing puts that 20k plane well over 35k when all is said and done.

With the flying season ending here ( the three airstrips here don't stay open in winter) so I have some time to shop.

Someone said in one of the posts, get a plane you like, I think that's true.

I'm not sure I would factor in $5,000 to $8,000 for the import.

Did it cost me $6000...yes it did...however I think those are things that would have needed to be done anyway...regardless of where the aircraft came from.

I forget all of the things we did now (no logs on me)...but one of the larger items was replacing virtually all of the control cables...which were in terrible condition.

Yes...get the airplane you like...it really doesn't make much financial sense...but hey, it seems like the best things in life don't make financial sense!

Not to detour this thread -- but I'm pondering somewhat of a "special case" in perhaps registering our currently N-numbered 150-C in Canada.

We own a second home near Riding Mountain National Park in Manitoba, where there is an airport with hangar space at Erickson, MB. Someday, maybe even more sooner than later, we intend to spend up to six months at a time at our Canadian home, which we love much more than ours here in the U.S.

N7939Z has no major modifications (although a tailwheel conversion is planned), has a current annual as of last July and title search done 22 months back when we purchased the airplane. Weighing the advantages of owner-maintenance (against the disadvantage of not being able to fly back south of the border), how much of a hassle would it be to register in Manitoba? Taking into account we're homeowners there (which does have some privileges, albeit paying taxes).

My wife says I'd miss having the plane here, but then -- flying in Canada is just so much more fun -- like when and if I ever get the plane on skis, eh!

Thanks to all for any advice you might give ...

Steven,
Maybe... Here is an exerpt from the COPA book (available from the member section of their website) on foreign ownership. If you need more, let me know. Whole book is just over 1/2 meg.

There is lots more stuff on the COPA website www.copanational.org [copanational.org]

Here is the Transport Canada site for aviation
http://www.tc.gc.ca/air/menu.htm

Steven

Below is a neat document from TC about this exact subject. I didn't know it existed until tonight and always used MSI 26 as a guideline.

Chapter 5 has the eligibility requirements for registering an aircraft in Canada.

Hopefully it will work out for you.

Canadian Aircraft Registration Procedures [tc.gc.ca]

Steven, I would wonder what benefit you would get out of registering here in Canada. As long as you have a US pilot's license, I believe you are foot loose and fancy free. I would imagine,, you'd find it cost prohibitive. No one has really said,, but I'm about 98% sure that at a minimum, the inspection and related paperwork will cost $5000. And then, there is the tax thing. I don't know if Manitoba has a "sales tax", or how GST is applied. One thing I do know for sure,, and here I'll use a car as an example. Let's assume you purchased a vehicle say,, 3 years ago in Alberta, or the US,, well guess what, they expect their sales tax when you register it in BC,, yep, even if you've owned the thing for several years. "They use the blue book value". Regarding GST,, that one I don't know how it's applied.

GST is applied at the border or where you clear customs. When I trailered my plane home, customs took care of the GST right away with my credit card. Then interviewed me for over 20 minutes about the airplane, asking many times if I had another bill of sale with a higher price on it! Only after they searched me and I showed them the website of the company that I bought it from, did they let me go.

They didn't even look at the actual plane!

John, looks like you had an experience with customs. I paid my taxes when I cleared customs as well. 4 months later, they sent me an invoice stating I needed to pay the same taxes over again. I called them and they indicated I hadn't paid. When I told them I'd paid already,, they wanted me to send them a copy of my receipt. I told them I wouldn't, for them to get their sh-t together and find it themselves. They eventually found it,,,,